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On 10/7/2011 1:27 PM, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:kennethgmiller@juno.com">kennethgmiller@juno.com</a> wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:20111007.132725.19618.0@webmail59.vgs.untd.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">R' Micha Berger wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I don't understand the mi'ut of today's poseqim ... chamur posiiton,
... Which means that any valid reason why the person isn't fully
accountable for his decision ought to be a halachic factor. Even
if they aren't closely similar to a TsN.
</pre>
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<p class="quote"
style="text-align:justify;direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:embed"><b><span
style="mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-family:"Arial
Narrow"">Igros
Moshe</span><a style="mso-footnote-id:ftn1" name="_ftnref1"
title=""><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><span
style="mso-special-character:
footnote"><span class="MsoFootnoteReference"><b
style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:"Arial
Narrow","sans-serif";mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:FrankRuehl;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
EN-US;mso-bidi-language:HE">[1]</span></b></span></span></span></a></b><b><span
style="mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-family:"Arial
Narrow"">(Even
HaEzer 1:82):</span></b><span
style="mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-family:
"Arial Narrow""> I mean even more. That even
concerning the children that the
Rambam writes (Hilchos Mamrim 3:3) “however the children of
those who erred and
their descendants who have been misled by their fathers and were
born amongst
the Karaites who raised them according to their mistaken
understanding they are
like tinok shenishba (captive children). They have been raised
not to be
concerned about keeping mitzvos and it is like they are forced
against their
will.” Thus we see that these descendants do not have the status
of being
lowered into the pit and not being raised out – nonetheless they
are also
invalid witnesses. While it is true that they are not less valid
than non‑Jew,
nevertheless they are not more valid than non‑Jews either in
regards to be a
witness. That is because they are not considered as Jews in
regard to being a
witness... Therefore<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>just
as non‑Jews
are invalid witnesses so are these children of heretics. Even
though in regards
to not rescuing them from a pit it is logical that they are
superior to non‑Jews.
That is<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>for the reason
stated in the
Rambam that they are to be encouraged to repent with pleasant
words until they
return to the Torah – a reason which is not relevant for
non‑Jews. Nevertheless
as long as they haven’t repented and remain in their mistaken
ways they are not
superior in general to non‑Jews since we see that heretics are
considered to
have left the Jewish people since they are not observing the
Jewish religion.
Therefore as long as they continue their mistaken understanding
and behavior
they are not included in the Jewish people. The only exception
is that they are
superior in regards to the issue of saving them because there is
no obligation
to get non‑Jews to observe more mitzvos but there is such an
obligation for the
children of heretics. Therefore even if you consider them to be
tinok shenishba
amongst the non‑Jews because of the heresy which has become
widespread in the
world – G‑d save us – and they are just being influenced by
their environment<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>-
nevertheless they are invalid witnesses
because they are not better<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>than
non‑Jews.
In fact, however it is reasonable to say that these children of
heretics are
not considered in the category of tinok shenishba amongst the
non‑Jews since
they live in places where religiously observant Jews are found
and also because
their ancestors believed in G‑d and His Torah and they were
influenced to
follow in the mistaken ways of their parents. In fact they had
the option of
following in the influence of the religiously observant and
their ancestors and
a son is more<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>influenced
by his
ancestors. If so they are in effect freely choosing the bad path
and they
through their evil thoughts are caught up in evil and they have
misled
themselves. And I saw<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>in
the Rambam(Hilchos
Mamrim 3:3) that he writes, “And what is our case that the
person is considered
a full heretic and should be killed? It is a person who follows
after his
lightheaded thoughts and after the desires of his heart and
denies the Oral
Torah just as Tzadok and Baysos did first and similarly all
those who
mistakenly followed after them.” Thus we see that even those who
mistakenly
followed after Tzadok and Baysos even though they themselves
were not heretics.
However after they were captured by the words of Tzadok and
Baysos and followed
after them and did not follow after the good observant Jews -
they are
considered as<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>those who
initiated
heresy. The reason is simple because they also saw righteous and
observant
people and they were able to follow after them and nevertheless
they went after
the wicked and therefore they are considered as having
deliberately sinned.
Thus is it with our present case. These people also see
righteous and observant
people and they are able to follow after them. Nevertheless they
are caught to
go after the wicked and are thus intentional sinners and are
like those who
initially denied the Torah and therefore they are included
amongst those who
should be lowered into a pit and not rescued and are therefore
worse than non‑Jews
and they are invalid as witnesses as I have explained.</span></p>
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