<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=US-ASCII" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META name=GENERATOR content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.19046"></HEAD>
<BODY style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" id=role_body bottomMargin=7 leftMargin=7 rightMargin=7 topMargin=7><FONT id=role_document color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><FONT lang=0 color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial FAMILY="SANSSERIF" PTSIZE="10">
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial>From: David Riceman <driceman@optimum.net><BR>old TK:
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial>> From our human point of view G-d makes it appear "as if" He
doesn't <BR>> know what we will do -- He does that by the simple expedient of
keeping <BR>> US in the dark about the future. But of course He does know and
yet that <BR>> does not take away our bechira, because WE don't
know.<BR><BR>RDR: How do you see that in the Ramban?</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>TK: I don't see that in the Ramban, I see that inside my
head. I wasn't addressing the Ramban, I was only addressing the
question, according to my understanding, of how our bechirah does not limit
G-d's ability to see the future, or vice versa.</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><FONT lang=0 color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial FAMILY="SANSSERIF" PTSIZE="10"><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial><BR><BR>old TK: > To say that if G-d has total foreknowledge,
then we don't have free <BR>> will, or if we have free will, then He
doesn't have foreknowledge, is a <BR>> plain contradiction to what Chazal
said. It's in Pirkei Avos. "Hakol <BR>> tzafui vehareshus
nesunah."<BR><BR>RDR: I would say that the naive translation of that is: "You
can do what you <BR>want, but God sees what you do". "Tzafui" need not
imply prediction.<BR><BR></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>TK: "Tzafui" absolutely does mean foreknowledge. And I don't want to
hurt anyone's feelings but I really think that the denial that Hashem knows
the future is apikorsus. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=0 color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial FAMILY="SANSSERIF" PTSIZE="10"><BR><STRONG>--Toby Katz<BR>================</STRONG></FONT><FONT lang=0 color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial FAMILY="SANSSERIF" PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>_____________________</DIV></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><FONT lang=0 color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial FAMILY="SANSSERIF" PTSIZE="10"><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial><BR><BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>