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<DIV><FONT lang=0 color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial FAMILY="SANSSERIF" PTSIZE="10">In a message dated 6/24/2011 1:06:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
bdcohen613@gmail.com writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial>
<DIV>"I always thought that it is a mitzva to be ethical, honest and
have<BR>integrity. "V'asita hatov v'hayashar" for starters. So how can
it be that<BR>being honest and ethical is outside the definition of
being "frum" if you<BR>define frum as "keeping the mitzvos"?</DIV>
<DIV>David I. Cohen</FONT></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>>>>>></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Here we go round the mulberry bush, so early in the morning.....</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>But I think I am beginning to see, dimly, what the problem is. It is
an elementary confusion between "is" and "should be."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> You think that when I define "frum" as "observant" that I am giving
my own personal preference as to what the word /should/ mean, and that I am
content for a frum person to keep Shabbos but be dishonest. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Whereas in reality I am merely giving the dictionary definition of
what the word "frum" actually /is/ in common everyday usage, and I am
stating that it means Orthodox/observant.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>How can an Orthodox person sometimes sin? well duh, it just kind of
happens....maybe you've heard of such cases. Or maybe you live in an
idealized world in which every Orthodox Jew is a perfect tzaddik.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>According to YOU, when a person sins, he is not Orthodox? According
to /your/ definition, when you speak loshon hara, you are no longer Orthodox, no
longer an observant Jew?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>And if that /is/ how you understand it, do you have a different word that
you prefer to use to distinguish between frum and non-frum Jews -- between
observant and non-observant? If you want to keep the word "frum" only for
perfect tzaddikim who never sin, what terminology, if any, do you prefer to
use in order to define distinctions between religious and secular
Jews? OR do you actually believe that any person who sins is at that
moment a secular Jew and can no longer claim to be religious?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=0 color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial FAMILY="SANSSERIF" PTSIZE="10"><BR><STRONG>--Toby Katz<BR>================</STRONG></FONT><FONT lang=0 color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial FAMILY="SANSSERIF" PTSIZE="10"><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>_____________________
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