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<DIV dir=ltr>Rn. LL wrote:</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>> A piece of paper that fell from heaven. I'm not even sure how to respond to that. I don't think we get our liturgy from pieces of paper that fall from heaven.<BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>RZS then replied:<BR>>>Except that that is *exactly* how we got Baruch She'amar. I'm not sure<BR>>>how to respond to someone who openly says they don't believe that.<BR>>>See Taz OC 51:1</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>So I suppose you would have trouble responding to the Peri Chadash. In last week's alon Shabbat b'Shabbato, R. Yosef Tzvi Rimon discussed Baruch She'amar and noted that Peri Chadash (OH 51) asked (rhetorically) "It surprises me - since the Talmud has been closed and sealed, how were the Geonim able to institute new berachos?" So the Peri Chodosh seemed to accept that Baruch She'amar postdated the Talmud, and was not instituted by the Anshei Knesses Hagedola based on a heavenly note or otherwise. I have not seen the PC inside, but presume that he was familiar with the Mordechai and Taz who record the note-from-heaven story.</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>Also, the earliest source for the note falling from heaven in the times of the Anshei Knesses Hagedola is the Taz, citing the Tolaas Yaakov, in turn citing the Ohr Zaruah. I guess you need emunah of a chassidic variety to believe that a mediaeval Rishon knew what had happened a thousand years before, or had a tradition which no-one else happened to mention.</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>The discomfort that Rn. LL, Prof. Levine and I feel when faced with the assertion that the Ari was taught by Eliyahu Hanavi may stem from the fact that it makes halacha depend on the personal experiences of mystics, rather than group revelation, as at Har Sinai, or group acceptance by Klal Yisroel, through acceptance of the Talmud Bavli and subsequent minhagim. This is apart from the question whether the mystics in question were actually spoken to by Eliyahu or whoever. I have met a number of Chabad chassidim, in particular, who could not understand why every observant Jew would not be one of them, given that Eliyahu spoke to the Ari, the Baal Shem Tov, and then their Rebbes experienced additional revelations. This approach leaves no room for eilu v'eilu and effectively delegitimizes any form of Yahadut other than Chabad Chassidus. However, the bottom line is that, if you accept their premisses (of the various revelations, etc), they are completely correct, we should all be Chabad Chassidim. Which is one reason I have trouble acccepting their premisses.</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>Kol tuv,</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>Dov Kaiser</DIV> </div></body>
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