<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div>On Apr 28, 2011, at 1:00 PM, Zev Sero wrote:</div><blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">On 29/04/2011 10:54 AM, menucha wrote:</div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">The chatan is distraught at the thought of his father not being</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">mentioned, and by the fact that this is not "the normal way of writing a</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">ketuba".</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">There are definitely issues here of not getting the chatan "turned off</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">to judaism" etc.</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Is he upset at the very idea that the ketuba will be written differently,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">that halacha regards his circumstances as different, or is it just that</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">he's afraid of being embarrassed if it's read out loud?<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Because if that's</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">the problem, there's a simple solution: whoever reads it under the chupah</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">should skip the fathers' names on both sides.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Nor is there any need at</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">all to have the ketuba framed and put on the wall for all to see (another</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">very modern "tradition" that has no more basis than lining up for pizza on</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">motzaei yom tov).</div></blockquote><br></div><div>Seconding RZS's response here: if the issue is embarrassment due to a public presentation of his non-standard yichus, the well known solution is that no one other than the mesader kiddushin, eidim, and whoever reads the ketubah actually need to see what is written in it. The reader can mumble, or slightly change the text by the names so as to avoid embarrassment, and the ketubah never has to be displayed. (Which also saves money on buying a fancy ketubah; a simple pre-printed form or even something typed up by the Rav's secretary is fine.)</div><div><br></div><div>OTOH, if what is bothering him is the fact that the halacha does not recognize his father as belonging on the ketubah, then IMHO we are in the territory beyond not turning someone off, and into not accommodating fundamentally problematic ideas. Of course such issues have to be judged on a case by case basis, but at some point it becomes appropriate to confront someone and point out where there notions have deviated from a proper Torah perspective, even at the risk of alienating them.</div><br><div> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div>--</div><div>Daniel M. Israel</div><div><a href="mailto:daniel@kolberamah.org">daniel@kolberamah.org</a></div><div><br></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"> </div><br></body></html>