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<TITLE>Recent timers on Shabbat and Yom Tov posting on Hirrhurim</TITLE>
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<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">On Hirrhurim recently</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"> <FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">R</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">’</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri"> Michael Broyde</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri"> has a guest post on timers on</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"> <FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">Shabbat</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri"> and Yom Tov(</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"> </SPAN><A HREF="http://torahmusings.com/2010/09/timers-on-shabbat-and-yom-tov.html"><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><U><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" FACE="Calibri">http://torahmusings.com/2010/09/timers-on-shabbat-and-yom-tov.html</FONT></U></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"> <FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"> <FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">). Some of the things he said puzzled me,</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri"> a bit, particularly his references to the shita of RYBS. Since there are a number of RYBS aficondos on this list, I wondered whether anybody was able to explain a bit better</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri"> (the reference that R</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">’</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri"> Broyde gave to RYBS</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">’</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">s shita is apparently more fully explained in a book by RHS which I don</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">’</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">t have access to)</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"> <FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"> <FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">R</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">‘</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri"> Michael Broyde wrote:</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"> </SPAN></P>
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<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT FACE="Calibri">>The second position, that of Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik and others, states that the critical factor is whether the additional force needed to finish the action is present at the time of human</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"> <FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT FACE="Calibri">activity.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"> <FONT FACE="Calibri">Winnowing in the wind is prohibited only when the wind is blowing at the time the wheat is thrown into the wind; the barrel case is permitted since one is placing the barrels away from</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"> <FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT FACE="Calibri">the fire. Placing the barrels actually in the fire would be prohibited.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT FACE="Calibri">I</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"> <FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">don</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">’</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">t really</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT FACE="Calibri"> understand this. Or at least, I can understand a distinction if it is not clear that the fire is going to reach the barrels (eg there was no wind, so it might</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"> <FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">not</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"> <FONT FACE="Calibri">spread that far). But if there was a wind that was pushing the fire along, how is this any different? Or would RBYS and the others say that the barrel case is only talking about a case where there was no wind and the fire’s spread in the direction of the barrels was not inevitable? (But isn’t that a completely novel reading of the gemora, as it introduces an element of uncertainty?)</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT FACE="Calibri">Thus of course I am having problems with</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"> <FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">the</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri"> further statement that</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT FACE="Calibri">:</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT FACE="Calibri">>Since when adjusting a timer the additional force needed to finish the action, namely the rotation of the dial, is present at the time of human activity, all adjustments that hasten an action are >prohibited. </FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT FACE="Calibri">As mentioned, I understand this if and only if you understand that the fire might or might not reach barrels. But otherwise, why is the additional force propelling the fire (such as a wind) not considered present at the time of human activity and why is the timer not directly analogous. Yes the rotation of the dial is continuing, but so is the wind, and the fire (or dial) will inevitably come to the point where you have placed your peg or barrel (actually most of ours work by pushing down or up little levers so they are depressed or not – each lever corresponding to about fifteen minutes – once the dial reaches the point at which the levers are depressed, that enables the circuit to be complete and the electricity to flow, once it reaches a point where the levers are elevated, then the circuit</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"> <FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">is</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"> <FONT FACE="Calibri">no longer is complete)</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT FACE="Calibri">>Thus, Rabbi Soloveitchik rules that under no circumstances may one adjust the timer so that an appliance will begin to operate earlier than expected.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">Now I can make sense of the following distinction, in that the wind is only one force that is present when you throw the chaff in the air. But with regards to</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"> <FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">the</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri"> fire,</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"> <FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">there</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri"> are two forces ,</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">the</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri"> one propelling the fire along so it gets to the barrels, and the second which is the heat of the fire which causes the barrels to</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"> <FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">explode (and release their water), and the second is indeed not operating on</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"> <FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">the</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri"> barrels at the time of the completion of the human action.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">But it still seems to me that you have to say the same thing for the timer (un</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">less you take a general view that electricity is electricity is electricity). Because there is one circuit (which is closed and operating) which is the one that makes the timer move round with the time, and there is a second, open circuit. When the timer moves around to the peg or lever, it then causes the se</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">cond circuit to close, and the second circuit is what generates the electric current in the light that goes on. So again, t</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">w</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">o forces.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri"> So why under this analysis of grama is the time clock situation not mutar?</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">But then, I am having something of the same problem with the third shita brought by R</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">’</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri"> Broyde.</FONT></SPAN></P>
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<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT FACE="Calibri">></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT FACE="Calibri">A third view asserts that the critical factor is whether the indirect process used is the normal process. If the indirect process is the normal one, it is prohibited on Shabbat. Otherwise it is</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"> <FONT FACE="Calibri">></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT FACE="Calibri">permitted. The barrel case is permitted only because it is not the normal manner to extinguish fire through a time delay. Winnowing, however, is frequently done through wind power</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"></SPAN></P>
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<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT FACE="Calibri">This I understand, but then:</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT FACE="Calibri">></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT FACE="Calibri">According to this approach, adjusting a timer is prohibited since it was designed to be used in this manner; however, placing ice cubes (or hot water) on a thermostat to increase the flow of heat</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"> <FONT FACE="Calibri">></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT FACE="Calibri">(or cold air), would be permitted since that is an indirect and unusual manner of making the adjustment.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"></SPAN></P>
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<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">This bit I don</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">’</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">t understand. It is not the normal process to light (or extinguish) electric lights by use of a</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"> <FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">time delay and timers, but by a direct flip of a switch (unless you are referring to the case of using a time clock to deter burglars when</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"> <FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">in fact the inhabitants of the house are away</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"> <FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">–</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri"> but is this not in fact proof that this is not the normal function. Ie this is done because in fact it is normal for householders to turn on and off lights, and if in fact lights are going on and off</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"> <FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">in the</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri"> house, we assume burglars will assume it is inhabited and not burgle)</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">. </FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"> <FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"> <FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">In the case of the barrels and</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"> <FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">the</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri"> fire, the emphasis seems to be on the end result, namely extinguishing a fire, not on whether or no</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">t the barrels are or are not designed to hold water</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri"> as their normal function</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">. Why is the design of</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"> <FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">the</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri"> timer not similar to the design of the barrels (ie irrelevant) making the</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"> <FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">end result of lighting or extinguishing an electric light by means of time delay, being an indirect and unusual manner of turning on or off lights completely mutar?</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"> </SPAN></P>
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<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT COLOR="#1F497D" FACE="Calibri">Shavuah Tov</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-gb"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-gb"><FONT FACE="Calibri">Chana</FONT></SPAN></P>
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