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On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 17:50 -0400, Micha Berger wrote:
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On Thu, Jul 08, 2010 at 04:08:38PM -0500, Chanoch (Ken) Bloom wrote:
: How am I to understand Rav Schwartz in light of these issues with his
: conception of free will and hashgacha? (And how does he understand the
: Ramchal, and REED?)
I presume as you do, that he doesn't claim to be following REED. I
also am enthralled with Dr Nathan Birnbaum's idea of Tif'eres, where
one's mind is so unified that there is no clear line even between one's
yir'as Shamayim and one's choice of living room end table. Everything
is influenced by one's Jewishness - even aesthetics. (Which we don't
need to revisit yet again.)
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Though interesting, this idea of a Yirat Shamayim dictating all of one's actions, even down to the choice of a living room end table isn't the same thing as Hashem's hashgacha choosing your living room end table in spite of your decision (yetzer harah?) otherwise.<BR>
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The problem you hit WRT the amendation to Chullin 7b "No one bruises
(or even lifts) a finger down below unless a proclamation is issued from
above" is one I hit chasing a few of RIS's quotes.
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After looking more extensively into the hebrew word used here "nogef", it seems that the best English translation of this is "strike" (rather than "bruise") which suggests two possible modes of injury. In one mode, an object moves to be in the path of the finger, and the finger hits it. This one clearly comes from Hashem. In the other, it seems that the person is careless and strikes his finger becuase he wasn't paying attention to where it was going. Can we say this is truly under the person's control? If we are to take the Gemara to its logical extreme, perhaps we must say that Hashem takes over and decides where his finger should go when he isn't moving it intentionally.<BR>
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What are your thoughts on this understanding of the Gemara?<BR>
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I also have a problem mapping a large number of his many quotes of the
Ramchal to the way the texts appear to me when I read them. My first
example (and the only one I bothered keeping track of) from 1:7
(cut-n-pasted from <<A HREF="http://bilvavi.net/content/view/280/32">http://bilvavi.net/content/view/280/32</A>>):
As the Ramchal wrote in Mesillas Yesharim (Ch. 1), "The truth is
that the only true perfection (the true perfection of every single
person without exception) is deveikus to Hashem." And he concludes,
"Anything else considered good by people is vanity and deceptive
emptiness."
This is all a Jew really has in life - closeness to Hashem and
deveikus to Him....
Here's part of MY ch 1 (from <<A HREF="http://www.shechem.org/torah/mesyesh/1.htm">http://www.shechem.org/torah/mesyesh/1.htm</A>>,
I think it's R' Shraga Simmon's translation, but my confusion stemmed
from reading it in the original, and is not due to translation
subtleties):
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In the translation of this chapter, deveikut is translated using the words words union, unity, and united (depending on the grammatical form of deveikut in the text).<BR>
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Our Sages of blessed memory have taught us that man was created
for the sole purpose of rejoicing in God and deriving pleasure from
the splendor of His Presence; for this is true joy and the greatest
pleasure that can be found. The place where this joy may truly be
derived is the World to Come, which was expressly created to provide
for it; but the path to the object of our desires is this world,
as our Sages of blessed memory have said (Avorh 4:21), "This world
is like a corridor to the World to Come."
The means which lead a man to this goal are the mitzvoth, in relation
to which we were commanded by the Lord, may His Name be blessed. The
place of the performance of the mitzvoth is this world alone.
Therefore, man was placed in this world first - so that by these
means, which were provided for him here, he would be able to reach
the place which had been prepared for him, the World to Come, there
to be sated with the goodness which he acquired through them. As
our Sages of blessed memory have said (Eruvin 22a), "Today for their
[the mitzvoth's] performance and tomorrow for receiving their reward."
So, as I read the Ramchal, a Jew does NOT really have in life - closeness
to Hashem and deveiques to Him". That's what he has in Olam haBa. In
life, all a person has is the opportunity to become the kind of person
capable of that closeness, and capable of enjoying it.
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But the word deveikut doesn't appear anywhere in those three paragraphs that you have just quoted.<BR>
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In fact, the word deveikut appears in active form two paragraphs later:<BR>
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<DIV ALIGN=right>וכפי השעור אשר כבש את יצרו ותאוותיו ונתרחק מן המרחיקים אותו מהטוב ונשתדל <B>לדבק</B> בו - כן ישיגהו וישמח בו.</DIV><BR>
<DIV ALIGN=right></DIV><BR>
<FONT SIZE="2">To the extent that he has subdued his evil inclination and his desires, and withdrawn from those factors which draw him further from the good, and exerted himself to become </FONT><FONT SIZE="2"><B>united</B></FONT><FONT SIZE="2"> with it, to that extent will he attain it and rejoice in it.</FONT><BR>
<DIV ALIGN=right></DIV><BR>
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Look one chapter earlier, to the Ramchal's introduction, and you will see that lists deveikut as part of a list of other goals that we are able to accomplish in our lifetime.<BR>
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<DIV ALIGN=right>אם לא הסתכלנו ולא עינו מה היא <B>היראה</B> האמתית ומה ענפיה, איך נקנה אותה ואיך נמלט מן ההבל העולמי המשכיח אותה מלבנו? הלא תשכח ותלך אף על פי שידענו חובתה! <B>האהבה</B> גם כן, אם לא נשתדל לקבע אותה בלבבנו בכוח כל האמצעים המגיעים אותנו לזה - איך תמצא בנו? מאין יבוא <B>הדבקות</B> וההתלהטות בנפשותינו עמו יתברך ועם תורתו, אם לא נשעה אל גדולתו ואל רוממותו אשר יוליד בלבנו <B>הדבקות</B> הזה? איך <B>תטהר מחשבתנו</B> אם לא נשתדל לנקותה מן המומים שמטיל בה הטבע הגופני? <B>והמידות</B> כולם הצריכות כל כך תיקון והישרה, מן יישרם ומי יתקנם, אם לא נשים לב עליהם ולא נדקדק בדבר דקדוק גדול?</DIV>
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(Here, he translates deveikut as intimacy.)<BR>
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<FONT SIZE="2">If we do not look into and analyze the question of what constitutes true </FONT><FONT SIZE="2"><B>fear of God</B></FONT><FONT SIZE="2"> and what its ramifications are, how will we acquire it and how will we escape wordly vanity which renders our hearts forgetful of it? Will it not be forgotten and go lost even though we recognize its necessity? </FONT><FONT SIZE="2"><B>Love of God</B></FONT><FONT SIZE="2">, too - if we do not make an effort to implant it in our hearts, utilizing all of the means which direct us towards it, how will it exist within us? Whence will enter into our souls </FONT><FONT SIZE="2"><B>intimacy</B></FONT><FONT SIZE="2"> with and ardor towards the Blessed One and towards His Torah if we do not give heart to His greatness and majesty which engender this </FONT><FONT SIZE="2"><B>intimacy</B></FONT><FONT SIZE="2"> in our hearts? How will our </FONT><FONT SIZE="2"><B>thoughts be purified</B></FONT><FONT SIZE="2"> if we do not strive to rescue them from the imperfections infused in them by physical nature? And all of the </FONT><FONT SIZE="2"><B>character traits</B></FONT><FONT SIZE="2">, which are in such great need of correction and cultivation -who will cultivate and correct them if we do not give heart to them and subject them to exacting scrutiny?</FONT><BR>
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I haven't compared this to Derech Hashem yet to determine whether he explains deveikut there differently, but it seems your problem is a misunderstanding of what the Ramchal means when he uses the word deveikut.<BR>
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--Chanoch<BR>
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