<div><span style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse">R Z Sero wrote -<br>Meir Rabi wrote:<br><br>> R Z Sero said - Sun-baked loaves are not bread, and one cannot say<br>
> hamotzi on them or use them for the mitzvah of matzah.</span></div><div><span style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse">[MR] R Zev, please provide sources for this Halacha.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse">>(Yet another<br>
> proof, if one were necessary, against the children's story of our<br>> ancestors taking unbaked dough out of Egypt and the sun baking it into<br>> matzos on their shoulders.) Ka mashma lan that damper is not in that<br>
> category, that even though it's an inferior kind of bread it still<br>> counts as bread.</span></div><div><span style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse">[MR] Well, R Zev appears to be agreeing with the Diyuk in the Sh HaTziyun and its implications, as I pointed them out. There appears to be a state of processed dough that is neither Chametz nor Matza, I call this dehydrated dough. And the Q now moves on to, "How do we know if our very dry dough rolled V thin and heated to 700C, is considered baked at all? Maybe it is just dried out dough? Stuff that we should NOT be using for the Mitzvah of eating Matza"</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse"><br>><br>> R Zev is referring to the need for Matza to be baked by FIRE. But one<br>> can hardly suggest that the hot coals and ashes of the fire are not fire.<br>
ZS said >>How do you know?</span></div><div><span style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse">[MR] How do I know that hot coals are fire? I dont follow your question.</span></div><div>
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</span></div><div><span style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse">>They're waste heat, so this is an afiyah pechusa.</span></div><div><span style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse">[MR] Is Afiya Pechusa a Halachic term? Where is it found? What on Earth is "waste heat"?</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse"><br>>What's wrong with sun-baked bread? That it's not a derech afiyah.</span></div><div><span style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse">[MR] R Zev where is it indicated that sun baked bread is not bread? Derech Afiya applies to Hilchos Shabbos I think bcs Shabbos requires normal Melacha and is not a special Halacha to do with baking.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse"><br>>Baking in waste heat is also not derech afiyah, so how do we know that<br>>the same din doesn't apply. Ka mashma lan that it doesn't, and the<br>
>matzos are still hamotzi and still kosher for the mitzvah.</span></div><div><span style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse">[MR] Yes in principle this is correct. this is what I was proving from the comment of the ShaAr HaTziyun.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse">Does anyone know of another source for this observation?</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse">But I dont know a Mekor for "waste heat" that applies to Matza or any other aspect of Halacha. R Zev, please help us.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse">Anyway, I think the issue is that the Matza baked in the ashes and dying coals of a fire will dry rather than bake the dough, since the fire is not as hot as a normal baking oven. Dried out dough may not be Chamets but it is not be matza either and it may NOT be used for the Mitzvah of eating Matza. This is addressed by the ShHaTziyun, that baked in the embers is indeed deemed to be baked and Matza, so it CAN be used for the Mitzvah.</span></div>
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