<html><P>RMBerger writes: <BR><BR><Acording to R' Hai Gaon, they were darshening Yetzi'as Mitzrayim in order<BR>to come up with a pesaq on backing Bar Kochva. All 5 end up being among<BR>BK's supporters.<BR><BR>(snip)<BR><BR>All that said, I don't know if this R' Hai Gaon nor the nusakh "Amar<BR>lahem R. Elazar ben Azaria harei ani k'ven shivim shana" (which REMT<BR>brings) is a raayah for REMT. After all, they were up all night. But<BR>the mitzvah is when "pesach matzah umaror munachim lefanekha" (kein<BR>tihyeh lanu!). Perhaps they switched from the "ki yish'alkha binekha"<BR>format of sippur to something more lomdish after chatzos?></P>
<P> Rav Hai's comment, as quoted, doesn't mean that they were not m'kayeim the mitzva of SYM by their darshening, even if its purpose was a practical one, rather than merely historical. The m'sader of the haggada apparently considers it a kiyum of SYM, since it is quoted in support of "afilu kulanu chachamim . . . mitzva aleinu l'sapeir . . v'chol hamarbeh . . . harei zeh m'shubach."</P>
<P> As for the "pesach, matza umaror," it is not clear that they must be present to fulfill the mitzva; from the context, they might be the trigger for the mitzva (as opposed to Rosh Chodesh or mib'od yom), which then continues even after all three have been eaten. As for the matzo being "lechem she'onin alav d'varim harbei," that may well be a condition on the matzo -- that it be present when maggid is said -- rather than its presence being a condition for the fulfillment of SYM.</P>
<P> <This explanation of what they were up all night studying would explain<BR>"Raboseinu, higi'ah zeman Qeri'as Shema shel Shacharis". Who would have<BR>the temerity to correct 5 of the greatest rabbanim of all history on a<BR>matter every Jew knows? And why there were talmidim who could see that it<BR>was sunrise, rather than being with their rabbeim who couldn't? Rather,<BR>it was the talmidim stationed as lookouts against the Romans were the ones<BR>who informed their rabbeim. The rabbeim were in a closed room, in hiding.></P>
<P> Lav davka. If talmidim see their rabbeim involved in Torah to a point where they unaware that they are in danger of violating a mitzva overes, it would be incumbent on the students to point it out, regardless of the stature of the chachamim. <BR><BR><As REMT also writes:<BR>: If the story cited is accurate, perhaps the learning being done by<BR>: the guests was unrelated to Pesach and its mitzvos. The "proliferation<BR>: of lomdishe haggados," on the other hand, is meant to elicit discussion<BR>: which is part and parcel of sippur.<BR><BR>Certainly R' Hai Gaon's notion was in the morning, thus the lookouts at<BR>Shema time.></P>
<P> Again, lav davka. If they were noheig to daven k'vasikin, "higia z'man" would be before haneitz. Sfter all, they didn't say "higia sof z'man."</P>
<P>EMT <BR><BR> </P></html>
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