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<DIV><FONT lang=0 color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial FAMILY="SANSSERIF" PTSIZE="10"><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial>From: Dov Kaiser <A href="mailto:dov_kay@hotmail.co.uk">dov_kay@hotmail.co.uk</A><BR><BR><BR>R.
Eidensohn excerpted:<BR><BR><<*Yoma^] (23a): *Any scholar who does not
avenge himself and bear grudge like a snake is not a real talmid chachom.
[SNIP]>><BR><BR><BR>The Gemara is working hard to find a heikhei timtza
for R. Yochanan's statement that a talmid chakham who does not take revenge like
a snake is not a real talmid chakham. It rejects the possibility that the
statement refers to monetary matters, as the Torah forbids revenge in this
area. It then rejects the possibility that it refers to taking revenge for
a tzaara d'gufa, because we have already learned in Shabbos 68b about the virtue
of *ha-ne'elavin v'ein olvin* ... The Gemara then narrows down the
application of the statement to a case where the talmid chakham suffers tzaara
d'gufa but receives no apology....<BR><BR>RMB has already clarified that there
are Rishonim who explain this statement of R. Yochanan to be referring to
slights to kevod haTorah rather than personal slights. However, there is
no hint to that qualification in the words of the Gemara in
Yoma....<BR></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial>Kol tuv<BR>Dov Kaiser </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial>>>>>>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial>To answer in a way that Rashi would say is not wise -- that
is, to answer your last point first -- I would say that the "hint" you find
lacking in the Gemara is the very word "scholar"! By saying that a
*talmid chacham* must take revenge it implies right there in those very words
that it is talking about slights to kovod haTorah!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial>Now to go back and take another look at the rest of this post (and
this whole thread), the question is, under what circumstances is it
[permissible] [necessary] to take revenge, given that the Torah seems to command
forgiveness? We've already just mentioned one circumstance in which
it is apparently necessary, viz, a slight to kovod haTorah. Others may be
found in the Tefillah Zakah recited just before Yom Kippur. This
tefilla was composed, according to ArtScroll, by R' Avraham Danzig, author
of Chayei Adam, so I will take him as an authority for what kinds of sins one
[need not] [may not] forgive, when someone has harmed you.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial>Here is the ArtScroll translation of the relevant
passage:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial>==begin quote==</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial>Behold! I extend complete forgiveness to everyone who has
sinned against me, whether physically or monetarily, or who has gossiped about
me or even slandered me. So, too, to anyone who has injured me, whether
physically or financially, and for any human sins between man and his neighbor
-- except for money that I wish to claim and that I can recover by law,
and except for someone who sins against me and says, "I will sin against him and
he will forgive me" -- except for these I grant complete forgiveness; and may no
person be punished on my account.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial>==end quote== </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial>Of course, this goes even beyond what the Torah requires, since the
Torah does not forbid a person to call out to Hashem to punish their
oppressor. In fact the Torah itself says that if a widow or
orphan cries to Hashem because someone has mistreated them, that Hashem will
listen to them and woe betide their oppressor.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial>But the Tefillah Zakah does carve out clear exceptions to the "I
forgive everybody" statement, and these are, damages that can be claimed in
legal proceedings, and harm caused by a person who thinks he can act with
impunity and presumably keeps sinning against the same victim without
remorse. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><BR></FONT><B><FONT color=#0000ff>--Toby
Katz<BR>==========<BR><BR></FONT><FONT lang=0 color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial FAMILY="SANSSERIF" PTSIZE="10"></B>--------------------</FONT></FONT></DIV>
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