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<DIV><FONT face=Calibri>RKGM wrote:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I was going to respond to this thread with several paragraphs and examples,
pointing out that until one defines "Jewish", the question is meaningless and
unanswerable.<BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri>CM responds:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri>I agree. Definitions are always the key. But you can
define anything away by an appropriate definition of your making. But what
should matter is the accepted usage and the definition implied by that common
usage.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri>RKGM further wrote:</FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>But R' Zev Sero did a much better job than I. He wrote:<BR><BR>> In the
same sense, a Ben Noach today who accepts the truth of<BR>> the Torah and
keeps the 7 mitzvos because Hashem told Moshe<BR>> that he has to, and also
keeps additional mitzvos of his<BR>> choosing, is clearly a follower of the
Jewish religion, and<BR>> thus in English he is a "Jew" in the same sense
that a Xian<BR>> is a Xian or a Moslem is a Moslem. What he isn't is a
Ben<BR>> Yisrael, which is what *we* mean by a "Jew". (This is
the<BR>> issue that lies at the heart of the recent UK court case.)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri>CM:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri>I beg to differ. See the ongoing thread on
Areivim: </FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman"> [Areivim] Erasing
Ezekiel's Jewish identity.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri></FONT><BR><FONT face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri>RKGM further wrote:</FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>As bizarre as this sounds, he has hit the nail squarely on the head. None
of us is obligated in all Taryag mitzvos. If one wanted to, he could easily
argue that a Kohen Gadol and a Yisroel Mamzer are following different religions.
</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri>CM responds:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri>Again, <FONT face=Calibri>I beg to differ. See the
ongoing thread on Areivim: </FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman">
[Areivim] Erasing Ezekiel's Jewish identity.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri>But <STRONG>we are obligated</STRONG> in our
particular subset of mitzvos unlike an aino metzuva veoseh who only has the
7 mitzvos. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri>RKGM further wrote:<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>But one could also say that we are Jewish because we are trying to do
whatever it is that the Torah is telling us to do -- and that applies to a Ben
Noach as well!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri>CM responds:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri>Then why bother with a bais din to be megeyer when you
have already become a "Jew" on your own by merely practicing Judaism?
Besides, how could you be practicing Judaism if you can not learn torah
(gezel), you can not keep Shabbos (chayev misa), can not do pru urevu (can not
marry a Jewess), your kids can choose not to be "Jews", etc.
etc. You can be sympathetic to Judaism, you can be desirous of becoming a
Jew, you can believe in the authenticity of Torah, but that still does not make
you a Jew or a "practitioner of Judaism" until you are megeyer. Of course if by
"practice" is meant "pretend" that's another story. Eg. Little girls having a
pretend tea party, they are only going through the actions but not the real
thing. (This example may be a bit strong as the ben noach is an aino
metsuva veoseh).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri>Again see the thread on Areivim which I do not wish to
rehash here.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri>Kol Tuv</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri>Chaim Manaster</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
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