<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><DIV>--- On <B>Fri, 1/1/10, Eli Turkel <I><eliturkel@gmail.com></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
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<DIV class=plainMail>from daily halacha<BR><BR>1186. One may not count one who denies the truth of Torah Sh'baal Peh<BR>- aka The Oral Torah (and certainly one who denies The Written Torah<BR>received at Sinai via Moshe Rabbeinu) towards a minyan. [One may not<BR>count Conservative or Reform Jews towards a minyan.] Shulchan Aruch<BR>w/Mishnah Berurah 55:11, Piskei Tshuvos 55:21<BR><BR><BR>1187. One should also not answer Amein to a Kaddish made by any of<BR>these people, even at a burial. Piskei Tshuvos 55:21 >><BR><BR>Obviously the brackets were added by the email editor and is not in<BR>the mishna berura.<BR>Is this agreed to by everyone? It is not what i have seen</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
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<DIV>I can't believe there is a blanket Issur to not count a C or R Jew to a Minyan. Should'nt it depend on his individual beliefs? Not every C or R Jew believes fully in the Kefira of the Movement's ideologues. I'll bet most C & R Jews are ignorant of it. Many join C shuls because they see them as the middle of the road Judaism between O and R. Not too Frum and not to liberal.</DIV>
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<DIV>I would presume therefore that every C & R Jew should be looked at independantly.</DIV>
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<DIV>There are however 2 problems. </DIV>
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<DIV>1) How can we know for sure what they believe? It's not like we have the abilty to question them about their beliefs just before Barchu at Maariv. I think the answer lies in the concept of following the Rov. That is what we do with O Jews after all, isn't it? How can we know if someone who lives as an O Jew isn't a Kofer in his heart? We do not question anyone about it. If a Minyan of O Jews gather for Maariv, we say Barchu.</DIV>
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<DIV>I would venture to then say that at least as far as the average C Jew goes, he is very likely are not a Kofer and doesn't even think about such matters and should be counted into a Minyan based on the same principles of Rov that we follow for O Jews. A C rabbi might be a different matter. But even there he may or may not be a Kofer. Some are and some aren't.</DIV>
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<DIV>2) As to whether the level of Mitzvah obsevrance is an issue, I was once told by a very Chashuva Rav who is member of this list the follwing story. IIRC he asked RAS whether he could Daven Mincha in a Mechitza-less Traditional Shul where there when no women were present. Part of that Minyan consisted of members who were there were probably not Shomer Shabbos. IIRC RAS answered that at that moment they were not doing any Aveiros and could be considered as possible Baalei Teshuva - so he could Daven with them.</DIV>
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<DIV>HM</DIV>
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