<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 4:57 PM, Micha Berger <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:micha@aishdas.org">micha@aishdas.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Similarly here... The gemara speaks about prospicious times for prayer.<br>
Does it laudibly speak of anyone utilizing them? (Other than Bil'am<br>
knowing the moment of Hashem's anger [Berakhos 7a], which is obviously<br>
no raayah, and davening kesaqin which is about zerizim maqdimin, not<br>
timing for metaphysical effectiveness.)<br></blockquote><div><br>Who says davening at hanetz is only about zerizim makdimin? <br>Brachos 9b:<br>Amar R' Yochanan: Vasikin hayu gomrim osah im hanetz hachama k'dei sheyismoch geulah l'tfilla v'nimtza mispaleil bayom. Amar R. Zeira: Mei krah: "Yira'ucha im shemes v'lifnei yareiach dor dorim."<br>
<br>Lest you say that the pasuk is only brought to support a halacha whose "real" reason is zerizin makdimin, I'll point you to Brachos 29b, where R' Chiya bar Abba in the name of R' Yochanan advocates davening as the sun as about to set, citing the same pasuk. In that case, and by extension on 9b as well, Yira'ucha im shemesh is not about zerizin makdimin, but about davening as the sun is rising/setting.<br>
<br>Many halachos about davening are phrased in the gemara as "auspicious" things. 7b: Kol hakoveia makom l'filaso oyvim noflim tachtav. Those few dafim (especially around 5 and 6 but really the entire first perek) are replete with examples of, "do such-and-such, because whoever does such-and-such, his tefillos are answered."<br>
<br>On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 10:45 PM, Ben Waxman <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ben1456@zahav.net.il">ben1456@zahav.net.il</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;" class="gmail_quote">
If they add up to 24/7, then they are basically meaningless.<br></blockquote><font color="#888888">
</font><br>See Brachos 6b: v'amar R' Chelbo amar R' huna: L'oleim yehei adam zahir b'tfilas mincha sheharei Eliyahu lo ne'enah ela b'tfilas mincha, sh'ne'emar... R' Yochanan amar, af b'tefillas arvis... Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak amar: af tefillas shacharis...<br>
<br>Note that this is not just descriptive, but prescriptive. "Yehei zahir." The fact that the gemara cites 3 pesukim telling us to be zahir with each of these tefillos means that there is something special about each of those times. Yes, ultimately there would no navka mina if the gemara had said, "L'olam yehei zahir b'chol tefilosav", but that's not what it did.<br>
<br>KT,<br>Michael<br></div></div>