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Zev Sero wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:4A76DDFB.7080309@sero.name" type="cite">Eli
Turkel wrote:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"> R Broyde has an article on the
<br>
subject in Journal of Contemporary Society 43
<br>
<br>
In it his brings that the Tzitz Eliezer allows reporting crimes to
<br>
western society governments based on the Arukh HaShulchan that todays
<br>
governments do not kill criminals as bandits used to in the old days.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
1. This makes no sense, since its premise - that the law of moser has
<br>
something to do with the government killing the victim - is patently
<br>
false. Hamoser *mamon* chavero is no less a mosser.
<br>
</blockquote>
<p class="quote"
style="text-align: justify; direction: ltr; unicode-bidi: embed;"><b><font
face="Arial Narrow" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-weight: bold;">Rosh says that being moser
money will lead to killing<br>
</span></font></b></p>
<p class="quote"
style="text-align: justify; direction: ltr; unicode-bidi: embed;"><b><font
face="Arial Narrow" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-weight: bold;">Rosh</span></font></b><a
style="" href="#_ftn1" name="_ftnref1" title=""><span
class="MsoFootnoteReference"><b><sup><span style="font-weight: bold;"><span
style=""><!--[if !supportFootnotes]-->[1]<!--[endif]--></span></span></sup></b></span></a><b><span
style="font-weight: bold;">(17:1):… </span></b><span style="">Our
Sages compared an informant who causes
a bandit to take money from another Jew to a rodef who pursues to kill
…. So to
in the case of money of a fellow Jew, once it falls into the hands of a
bandit
there is no mercy. Today they take some of it and tomorrow they take
the rest
and in the end the Jew himself is taken by the bandits and he is killed
because
they think he admit he has more money. Because it leads to killing, the
informing of bandits about a Jew’s money is like a pursuer to kill
someone
(rodef) and the victims can be saved by killing the informant… And
surely in
the present case where according to witnesses he has been warned
already and he
refuses to desist. Thus it is considered an on going crime and everyone
has the
right to punish him without the need of receiving witnesses in his
presence.
Even when it is not an on going crimes, when someone is judged before
non‑Jews
they do not require the acceptance of witnesses in his presence. That
is
because someone who is an established informant, the non‑Jews show
favoritism
to him for their own benefit. Therefore if there were a requirement to
accept
witnesses in his presence and do a thorough examination of them – he
would
never be convicted since the non‑Jews would protect him. Even when he
is not in
danger he informs on individuals and the public so surely in the case
where he
is accused and thus his life is in danger – he will make false
accusations and
will endanger the entire Jewish community. Therefore the standard
practice in
all Jewish communities is when a person has informed three times –
either
regarding giving over the Jew himself or his property to a bandit –
they search
a means of having him punished. This is an emergency condition for the
community to prevent him informing on others and to eliminate
informers.
Therefore in our present case where witnesses have established that he
has
repeatedly informed and that he is prepared to do it again – it is good
to have
him judged and punished. And thus should be done to all enemies of G‑d…</span></p>
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<blockquote cite="mid:4A76DDFB.7080309@sero.name" type="cite">
<br>
2. The Aruch Hashulchan absolutely cannot be relied on in this area;
<br>
his exaggerated flattery of contemporary government is transparently
<br>
designed to please the censor, and is so over the top precisely so
<br>
that the reader should understand that he doesn't mean it. E.g. see
<br>
the title of the siman on hilchot gerut. It's of a piece with the
<br>
siddurim that proclaimed "avinu malkenu en lanu melech *bashamayim*
<br>
ela ata"; everybody understood that the extra word was not to be said.
<br>
</blockquote>
It is hard to accept that the Aruch HaShulchan would lie c.v. about the
correct halacha See Yam Shel Shlomo Bk 38a<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:4A76DDFB.7080309@sero.name" type="cite"><br>
The Ramo permits the *victim* of a violent crime to masser his
<br>
assailant. I'm not sure that other people are included in this heter.
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
Rema (388:7) is dealing with a case that someone is regularly beating
others - there is no mention how serious the beatings are<br>
<br>
<p class="quote"
style="text-align: justify; direction: ltr; unicode-bidi: embed;"><b><font
face="Arial Narrow" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-weight: bold;">Rema</span></font></b><a
style="" href="#_ftn1" name="_ftnref1" title=""><span
class="MsoFootnoteReference"><b><sup><span style="font-weight: bold;"><span
style=""><!--[if !supportFootnotes]-->[1]<!--[endif]--></span></span></sup></b></span></a><b><span
style="font-weight: bold;">(C.M. 388:7):…</span></b><span style="">
Some say that if a man has been
hit by another - it is possible to file a complaint with the secular
government
- even though this causes the assailant great damage.<br>
</span></p>
<p class="quote"
style="text-align: justify; direction: ltr; unicode-bidi: embed;"><span
style="">There is also a Shach (388:45) to this effect as well as a
Chasam Sofer (Gittin 7a). <br>
</span></p>
<p class="quote"
style="text-align: justify; direction: ltr; unicode-bidi: embed;"><span
style=""><br>
</span></p>
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