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Zev Sero wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:4A76DDFB.7080309@sero.name" type="cite"><br>
The Ramo permits the *victim* of a violent crime to masser his
<br>
assailant. I'm not sure that other people are included in this heter.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
I don't understand why you would think that possibly only the victim
can report his assailant to the secular authorities. Aside from the
fact that the source of the Rema explicity says otherwise.<br>
<p class="quote"
style="text-align: justify; direction: ltr; unicode-bidi: embed;"><b><font
face="Arial Narrow" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-weight: bold;">Maharach Ohr Zarua</span><span
class="MsoFootnoteReference"><sup><span style=""><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--></span></sup></span></font></b><b><span
style="font-weight: bold;">(#142): … </span></b><span style="">
Therefore it would
appear that
while the victim of the beating is still angry at his assailant and he
hasn’t
calmed down by complaining to the secular authorities and he can not
restrain
himself from taking revenge – either the victim himself or his
relatives who
are close to him<span style=""> </span>- as a result I am
afraid that the perpetrator already has become wicked and that it is a
minor
thing in his eyes to beat him again and this will lead to murder. It is
therefore not only the victim who is allowed to file a complaint with
the
secular authorities, but it is in fact a mitzva for everyone to report
to the
judge that Reuven hit Shimon. Therefore those who are filled with rage
report
the crime to the secular authorities so the situation will not
escalate. And if
this reporting to the secular authorities leads to the judge taking
advantage
of the perpetrator and taking away all his money – than the information
is
exempt. Because if he isn’t exempt then no person will attempt to save
his
fellow man from the assaulter. ...<span style=""> </span>If the
assailant is someone who
regularly hits others and has done it repeatedly and openly – and from
his
actions it is clear that he will beat up anyone who disagrees with him
– then
it is a clear mitzva for every Jew to report him to the secular
authorities and
request that he be stopped. However if as a result of informing the
secular
authorities they mistreat him and take away all his money – the
informant is
not liable. Whoever is involved in improper behavior or with non‑Jewish
women
or with anything which might bring harm to the community – if the
community
warns him to stop and he doesn’t listen – it is permitted to inform on
him to the
secular government – that he is doing disgusting things.<br>
</span></p>
<p class="quote"
style="text-align: justify; direction: ltr; unicode-bidi: embed;"><span
style="">It seems clear from other sources that this ability is not
limited to the victim<br>
</span></p>
<p class="quote"
style="text-align: justify; direction: ltr; unicode-bidi: embed;"><font
face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";"><b>Sema
(C.M. 388:30)</b>:This that the abuser is not reported to the secular
authorities
is only when he is verbally abusive to the individual but if he causes
financial loss and surely
if he beats him or causes bodily suffering it is permitted to report
him to the
secular authorities as is stated in the Rema and the Darchei Moshe. </span></font><span
style=""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=""><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--></div>
<div class="moz-text-plain" wrap="true" graphical-quote="true"
style="font-size: 16px;" lang="x-western">
<pre wrap="">If this is based on din of not standing idly by the blood of your fellow. The Rambam says:
</pre>
<p class="quote"
style="text-align: justify; direction: ltr; unicode-bidi: embed;"><b><font
face="Arial Narrow" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-weight: bold;">Rambam</span><span
class="MsoFootnoteReference"><sup><span style=""><!--[if !supportFootnotes]--><!--[endif]--></span></sup></span></font></b><b><span
style="font-weight: bold;">(Hilchos Rotzeach 1:14):</span></b><span
style=""> Whoever has the ability to save
someone and yet doesn’t - transgresses Vayikra (19:16): Do not stand
idly by
the blood of your fellow man. Similarly if one saw his fellow man
drowning in
the sea or being attacked by bandits or wild animals and he had the
ability to
save him himself or hiring others to save him – and yet he didn’t save
him. Or
he heard that non‑Jews or informers were plotting to cause someone harm
and yet
didn’t warn the intended victim. Or he knows that a non‑Jew or
influential
person is upset with a fellow Jew and he has the ability to placate
them and to
eliminate their complaints and doesn’t placate them. And all similar
situations
which a person doesn’t save his fellow man when he had the ability to
do so –
has transgressed the prohibition of “don’t stand idly by the blood of
your
fellow man.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre wrap="">If it is an aspect of rodef then again - all Jews are commanded to help
</pre>
<p class="quote"
style="text-align: justify; direction: ltr; unicode-bidi: embed;"><b><font
face="Arial Narrow" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-weight: bold;">Shulchan Aruch</span></font></b><a
style="" href="#_ftn1" name="_ftnref1" title=""><span
class="MsoFootnoteReference"><b><sup><span style="font-weight: bold;"><span
style=""><!--[if !supportFootnotes]-->[1]<!--[endif]--></span></span></sup></b></span></a><b><span
style="font-weight: bold;">(C.M. 425:1): </span></b><span style="">One
who runs after another person
to kill him and he is warned and yet continues pursuit – even if the
pursuer is
a child – all Jews are commanded to save the pursued by damaging a limb
of the
pursuer. However if that is not possible and the pursued can only be
saved by
killing the pursuer then he is to be killed – even though the pursuer
hasn’t
yet killed the pursued. <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Rema </span></b>If
one breaks into another’s house to steal – he also is considered a
pursuer
(rodef).<span style=""> </span>But if it is known that he
only broke in for the sake of money and that if the owner resists he
would not
kill him – then it is prohibited to kill him…. Someone who endangers
the
community such as being involved in counterfeiting in a country where
the king
strongly objects – then he has the status of rodef and it is permitted
to
inform on him to the secular authorities…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre wrap="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org"></a>
</pre>
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