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<DIV>Old TK: <BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>>if
you gave the women the option of either serving or not<BR>> serving as
witnesses, you would not have an equitable system. It would<BR>>
introduce a level of arbitrariness to the legal system.... </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2>>Plus, maybe more important, it would remove<BR>> from the woman
the element of protection of her dignity and tznius, since if<BR>> she
/can/ testify at her own discretion, she will be pressured to do so in<BR>>
many cases.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
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<DIV>R' Arie Folger wrote:</DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2><BR>>Surely this raises the question whether the theory
previously<BR>expounded upon in this august forum is correct, namely that
tzniut<BR>underpins just about all behavior, and that for whatever reason,
poor<BR>men are sometimes obligated to sacrifice this behavior - a
behavior<BR>that both genders have in common - for the sake of the greater
good. I<BR>simply take note that you have brought tzniut squarely back on
women's<BR>backs, as one could imagine there being equally important public
needs<BR>for men's and women's testimony.<<</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>TK: I never bought the notion that "tznius is the same for men and
women." I don't agree with RMB on this point and I don't think it's
true. I believe that what would be a breach of tznius for a
woman is not necessarily a breach of tznius for a man -- e.g., singing in
public, at a concert or while leading services in
shul. I concede that I was a little loose in my
wording, conflating "dignity" and "tznius" when they are overlapping
but not congruent categories.</DIV>
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<DIV>RAF:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2><BR><BR>>>Furthermore, as I have demonstrated, the plain meaning
of said derash<BR>on Devarim 22:16 is that a woman cannot/should not/may not
defend<BR>herself against a male accuser, who accuses her of a capital
crime.<BR><BR>IOW, we weren't talking about subpoena (well, R'n CL was, but
the<BR>derash isn't) but rather about the right to represent yourself in
beit<BR>din when defending yourself. <<</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>TK: I was talking about women being witnesses in court, not women
being defendants. I was under the impression that women defendants /are/
allowed to defend themselves, and I would be very surprised if the death penalty
could ever be carried out against a defendant who had no opportunity to defend
herself in court. A woman who had committed a crime (or was credibly
accused of a crime) would have acted in such a manner as to take herself out of
the category of women whose dignity must be preserved (and who therefore cannot
be called to testify in court).</DIV>
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<DIV><FONT lang=0 face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"
PTSIZE="10"><B>--Toby
Katz<BR>==========<BR><BR><BR><BR>_____________________</B></FONT></DIV></FONT><DIV CLASS="aol_ad_footer" ID="7aa1a64d8a4dbd663905d06cbfa085c"><br/><font style="color:black;font:normal 10pt arial,san-serif;"> <hr style="margin-top:10px"/><B>An Excellent Credit Score is 750. <A HREF=http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222585099x1201462822/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=JulyExcfooterNO62>See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!</A></B></font></DIV></BODY></HTML>