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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I don’t think RRW’s analogy to
tefillin does the trick. He writes: "Now plug in Men violating Tz'nius as
little as possible (but not absolute zero for practical
reasons.)"</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p>B</o:p></SPAN></FONT><FONT
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">ut that’s just the
point – men do NOT violate tzni’ut as LITTLE as possible; they violate it
as MUCH as possible if you accept RHS and RMB's definition of tzni'ut for
men. As I thought of this some more, I thought about the usual
wedding. There are 11 roles that men play out under the chupah (aside from
the groom): mesader kiddushin, two eidim, reader of the ketuba and those
reciting the seven brachot. At most weddings I attend, there are, indeed,
11 different men who walk up to, and stand under, the chupah to perform these
roles (sometimes one or two fewer). Now, if we took RHS’s analysis and
RMB's understanding of tzni’ut for men seriously, or if RRW’s claim that men
violate tzni’ut as little as possible, we would have just two men doing all
these public tasks (the two eidim who could one of whom could be mesader
kiddushin, the other read the ketuba, and they could split up the sheva brachot
between themselves), thus protecting the other men in the audience from
violating their tzni’ut. THAT would be men violating tzni’ut as little as
possible; THAT would demonstrate that we really mean that men and women have the
same type of tzni'ut obligations. But we all know that's not how we do
it. To the contrary, we consider these roles kibudim – honors – not
unfortunate, but necessary, violations of tzni’ut. We say "We *honor*
Rabbi Ploni with the fourth bracha," not "We request Rabbi Ploni to
violate his tzni'ut by reciting the fourth bracha because we need someone to so
it." </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Equal tzni'ut obligations for men and women might
sound good on paper but it’s not related in any way to the Judaism I see
practiced by both the people AND their leaders.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">And, while on this topic, I can’t say how happy I am
that RTK agrees with me, even if not completely. It’s made my
day!<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Joseph Kaplan</SPAN></FONT><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>