<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="ProgId" content="Word.Document"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><meta name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CBoss%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="place"></o:smarttagtype><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<w:WordDocument>
<w:View>Normal</w:View>
<w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom>
<w:PunctuationKerning/>
<w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/>
<w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>
<w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent>
<w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>
<w:Compatibility>
<w:BreakWrappedTables/>
<w:SnapToGridInCell/>
<w:WrapTextWithPunct/>
<w:UseAsianBreakRules/>
<w:DontGrowAutofit/>
</w:Compatibility>
<w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel>
</w:WordDocument>
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156">
</w:LatentStyles>
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if !mso]><object
classid="clsid:38481807-CA0E-42D2-BF39-B33AF135CC4D" id=ieooui></object>
<style>
st1\:*{behavior:url(#ieooui) }
</style>
<![endif]--><style>
<!--
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{mso-style-parent:"";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;
mso-header-margin:.5in;
mso-footer-margin:.5in;
mso-paper-source:0;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style><!--[if gte mso 10]>
<style>
/* Style Definitions */
table.MsoNormalTable
{mso-style-name:"Table Normal";
mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0;
mso-tstyle-colband-size:0;
mso-style-noshow:yes;
mso-style-parent:"";
mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
mso-para-margin:0in;
mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-ansi-language:#0400;
mso-fareast-language:#0400;
mso-bidi-language:#0400;}
</style>
<![endif]-->
<p class="MsoNormal">Shalom Toby and good Shabbas:> from golus, <br>
1. the chumash clearly states reuven slept with bilha. any other
interpretations that say he didn't sleep with her, open up a very dangerous can
of worms: who is to say "chazer" or "ribis" or
"shabbas" prohibitions really mean ""chazer" or "ribis"
or "shabbas"?? maybe they mean something else??? ....... along the
same lines, who is to say adam actually "ate" from the tree of
knowledge? maybe (according to similar reasoning) he did an aveira, but not
necessarily the exact aveira described....which was specified in the chumash?<br>
2. if reuven only moved his father's bed, why not say so? why say somthing that
would make him appear worse in the reader's eyes??<br>
3. if reuven "only" moved his father's bed, why did yaakov
say:(bereishis) "Unstable as water, have not thou the excellency; because
thou wentest up to thy father's bed; then defiledst thou it--he went up to my
couch? Why would yaakov, his father, tell him that he had "defiled"
his couch simply by moving it??<br>
4. http://www.utj.org/Torah/mfriedfertig/08Vayeshlach5760.html:<br>
The Mishnah tells us that the Metargeman should not read the Aramaic
translation of this verse. Some say this is because translating it would bring
disgrace upon Reuven (Rashi on Megillah 25a). Others claim that it would tarnish
Yaakov’s honor (Ron on Megillah 16a in the pages of the <st1:place w:st="on">Rif</st1:place>).
HB: there is obviously something going on here deeper, than meets the eye;
there are many instances of gedolei yisrael sinning/making errors in the
chumash; why try to cover up these specific 2 (mishna megillah; golen calf
& reuven); and/or explain away the one’s others in gemarra shabbas (55)??
Since when do jews hide their dirty laundry??? (spinka/mondrowitz and madoff
aside?)<br>
5. RTK re: reuven: <span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">When
it says "Anyone who thinks he sinned is mistaken" it MEANS
"Anyone who thinks he committed this particular sin is wrong." </span><br>
RTK re: dovid: <span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">"If
you think he sinned you are mistaken." It
clearly means, "If you think that he committed actual adultery, then
you are mistaken." </span><br>
HB: </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">A. mekoros? that the gemmara "clearly" means that, when it doesn't say anywhere what you say it does (again, another dangerous can of words to avoid opening: e.g., interpreting the words of our sages to mean something they didn't actually say (or possibly even mean), without written proof from the originaly authors (not meforshim on their words). <br></p>
<span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman";">B. the words used in the gemmarra are not “if you
think” but rather “anyone who SAYS”….is only mistaken”; there is a specific use
of loshon here by the authors of the gemmara, that I think we need to
understand; if their words were exact (like we believe they are) why 1. try to
paint a picture neged pshat in chumash/novi 2. why use the loshon “kol mi
sheOMER” versus another loshon</span></td></tr></table>