<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=US-ASCII">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.6000.16825" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=role_body style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"
bottomMargin=7 leftMargin=7 topMargin=7 rightMargin=7><FONT id=role_document
face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2>From: Saul Mashbaum <A
href="mailto:saul.mashbaum@gmail.com">saul.mashbaum@gmail.com</A><BR><BR>>>What
bothers me about the s'irim is the lottery, which seems to<BR>indicate that not
conscious, moral choice, but mere chance and fate,<BR>as it were,
determines whether a s'ir becomes la-Shem or la-Azazel.<BR>...If anything, this
difference emphasizes that the<BR>lottery is a unique, intrinsic element of the
2 s'irim. however, I am<BR>unable to fathom what its symbolic message is. In the
absence of any<BR>rational or moral decision regarding the s'ir selection
process, it is<BR>hard to see how they symbolize, in RSRH's words "With
our eyes on the<BR>Torah, we make our decision."<<<BR><BR><BR>Saul
Mashbaum</FONT></DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial
color=#000000 size=2></FONT></DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
face=Arial color=#000000 size=2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2>>>>><BR>If there were "a rational or moral decision regarding
the s'ir selection process" then the initial selection would show that the goats
were somehow /not/ identical, from the beginning. The lottery is not meant
to show that Hashem has determined that the two goats are somehow intrinsically
different, but the opposite: to show that they are both exactly the
same. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2>To quote Hirsch, "...identical in appearance, size and monetary
value. The lot marked 'for G-d' or that 'for Azazel' could fall upon
either one of them. The chances of becoming the one or the other are the
same for each. Indeed, each of the two can only become that which it will
become because it could just as well have become the other."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2>The whole point is that these are identical twins, exactly alike in every
way. The "twins" are the two possibilities that you can choose with your
life, the two possible life-arcs.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2>It goes without saying that a symbol can't possibly match point for point
the thing being symbolized. Whether chosen by lottery or by some other
system, it wouldn't /really/ be a matter of the goat's bechira whether it got
shechted in the BHM'K or fell off a cliff in the desert. The goats don't
have bechira, so the symbol falls down there. Much like the goat.
[Sorry, lame joke] [Much like the goat after it falls...]
[Sorry....]</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2>But even if the symbolism doesn't match point for point, the
identical goats do symbolize the fact that two identical /people/ can end
up with entirely different outcomes, and the different outcome is not the result
of any initial difference in the two people. I don't know if I'm making
myself clear or, just the opposite, beating a dead horse or a dead goat and
restating the obvious, but the lottery is meant to show that the INITIAL
conditions were identical, and either one could just as easily have been the
other.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>So if a person goes bad he can't say he was dealt a bad hand ab initio and
that's why he went bad.<BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT lang=0 face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"
PTSIZE="10"><B><BR>--Toby
Katz<BR>=============<BR><I><BR><BR><BR><BR>_______________</B></I></FONT></DIV></FONT><DIV CLASS="aol_ad_footer" ID="86e45de168abea4fa67a47233066adeb"><br/><font style="color:black;font:normal 10pt arial,san-serif;"> <hr style="margin-top:10px"/>Remember Mom this Mother's Day! <a href="http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=florist&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000006">Find a florist near you now</a>.</font></DIV></BODY></HTML>