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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
</span></font><font color=navy face=Verdana><span style='font-family:Verdana;
color:navy'>RSP replied:</span></font> <br>
<font color=navy face=Verdana><span style='font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>>
</span></font><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial'>if anyone washes his hand after the meal for whatever reason, especially
if he feels that his hands are greasy, then tur and the mechaber all state that
he is obligated in mayim acharonim</span></font><font color=navy face=Verdana><span
style='font-family:Verdana;color:navy'> <</span></font> <br>
<font color=navy><span style='color:navy'>MP: </span></font><font color=navy
face=Verdana><span style='font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>I think one needs to
add the word "regularly" before "washes." So, how
many of us regularly wash our hands after eating a meal?</span></font> <br>
<font color=navy><span style='color:navy'>you’re correct in that SA and Tur
say Ragil which would be translated regularly. But how does one define regularly?
Every meal? I would say that upon eating almost every sandwich people wash/wipe
their hands and that would then require mayim acharonim. But perhaps this
should be brought to a poseq.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
</span></font><font color=navy face=Verdana><span style='font-family:Verdana;
color:navy'>> </span></font>oh, i know what the darkei moshe wrote, and is
found at the end of the darkei moshe ha'aruch on the siman. but just as
he reacted to the BY in the darchei moshe and explicity stated that the minhag
is like tosophot, why didn't he do that in the SA? and that brings us to
the issue of retraction. is his silence a retraction or not?<font color=navy
face=Verdana><span style='font-family:Verdana;color:navy'> <</span></font> <br>
<font color=navy><span style='color:navy'>MP: </span></font><font color=navy
face=Verdana><span style='font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>Perhaps someone with
more knowledge of the subject can enlighten us on whether an argument from
silence (in this case, the lack of a "hagahah" by RMA upon SA OC 181
when he explicitly commented upon what the BY wrote) is valid, here or, indeed,
anywhere except when you witness the sh'siqah of a Rav and can truly say
k'hoda'ah damya.</span></font> <br>
<font color=navy><span style='color:navy'>I asked some people and they couldn’t
answer me immediately, and so I did some research myself and this is what I came
up with.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.75in;text-indent:-.5in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><font
size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:navy'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>1<font size=1 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><span dir=LTR><font color=navy><span
style='color:navy'>Look at chayei adam, klal 69 hilchot shabbos veyom tov,
nishmas adam aleph, last line of his comment: his proof is that the remah did
not respond at all in the SA although he had commented in Darchei Moshe, thus
he must have recanted.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.75in;text-indent:-.5in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><font
size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:navy'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>2<font size=1 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><span dir=LTR><font color=navy><span
style='color:navy'>See SA OH, 364:2, MB 8. now look at sha’ar hazion, no.
9 where he writes, see DM but since he wrote nothing here, he must have
recanted.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.75in;text-indent:-.5in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><font
size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:navy'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>3<font size=1 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><span dir=LTR><font color=navy><span
style='color:navy'>Even a Sephardi Poseq comes to the same conclusion, see
vayikra avraham (use responsa project for this one), chelek even haezer, no. 11,
end of next to the last paragraph (s.v. vehinei harav hachida.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>Accordingly, I can say similarly over, that
if Remah did not comment on this case, he recanted.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
</span></font><font color=navy face=Verdana><span style='font-family:Verdana;
color:navy'>>></span></font>> Finally the great forerunner of all
minhag ashkenaz, the maharil, also obligated mayim acharonim, see spitzer ed.,
p. 117, no. 41, and especially note heh. <<font color=navy face=Verdana><span
style='font-family:Verdana;color:navy'><<</span></font><br>
<font color=navy face=Verdana><span style='font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>>>
</span></font>Could I bother you to quote the phraseology verbatim? Online, the
words of the <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Lublin</st1:place></st1:City>
1590 edition (<a href="http://hebrewbooks.org/11762">http://hebrewbooks.org/11762</a>
-- see pp.160-161) don't tell me anything about a mandate for mayim acharonim
but rather seem to relate to explaining an "over la'asiyasan"
question brought by Tos'fos. Thanks. <font color=navy face=Verdana><span
style='font-family:Verdana;color:navy'><<</span></font><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><br>
</span></font><font color=navy face=Verdana><span style='font-family:Verdana;
color:navy'>> </span></font><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>see further post with attachment</span></font><font
color=navy face=Verdana><span style='font-family:Verdana;color:navy'> <</span></font>
<br>
<font color=navy><span style='color:navy'>MP: </span></font><font color=navy
face=Verdana><span style='font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>Thanks for sending me
a scan of a seifer listing "seider haHagadah." I would agree
that the language of #41 (and of #40) tells us that mayim acharonim was
perforce done by at least the "m'vareich" of Bircas haMazon (the one
we would nowadays call the "leader" of BhM) after the eating of the
afiqoman and that Shinui Nuschaos 41:5 adds (I don't know whether this is an
actual nusach in a copy of Seifer MaHaRYL or comes from the author of SN, and
the nafka mina is crucial!), "achein MaHaRYL, b'chal pa'am shenatal yadav,
amar lab'churim [v'ham'subin] gam-kein litol." I've previously seen
MaHaRYL misquoted (e.g. re whether a bachur should not wear a talis until he's
married), so I would very much like to know if that "achein" can be
sourced. Also, note the subfootnote 5, which elucidates, "Lichora,
haMaHaRaSH s'vira leih...d'mayim acharonim tiqnu lim'vareich l'fi shemazkir es
haSheim...ush'ar m'subin hu raq mip'nei hasakanah, v'savar haMaHaRaSH d'hayom
ein sakanah v'lachein ein tzrichim litol y'deihem k'lal, v'chein heivi deiah zu
b'Seifer haMinhagim 'Leil haSeider' 53:1." The bottom line seems to
be that mayim acharonim was l'chat'chilah done at the table of MaHaRYL at least
during leil haSeider by at least whomever would actually be saying BhM.</span></font>
<br>
<font color=navy><span style='color:navy'>r. shalom of neustadt (maharash), ed s.
shpitzer (machon <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Jerusalem</st1:place></st1:City>),
p.108, no.302:9 records that the mevarech washes his hands. However, R. Isaac Tirnau
brings a makhlokes whether everyone or just the mevarekh, p. 53 machon <st1:City
w:st="on">Jerusalem</st1:City> ed. r. avraham klausner records that all should wash
hands, and then adds that according to r. moshe hacohen (quoted from mordechai
berachot, no.191, agur 238) that the mevarech is the only one to make a beracha
on mayim acharonim, everyone else just washes. He bases it on the drasha, and
so is cholek on the tur and says the drasha is lehalakha and you make a
beracha. I note that all these sources are the real sources of minhag
ashkenaz and for the most part ignore the tosaphot!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>However, so far I can’t confirm what
it says in fn.heh anywhere in the maharil, but unless proven wrong, there’s
no reason why not to accept. Could be one year he said this, the next year,
that.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>In any case, there is certainly mayim
acharonim according to many of the founders of yekke minhagim. </span></font><br>
<font color=navy><span style='color:navy'>shomo</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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