Regarding us having to consider the "halachot" of ovdei kochavim, R' Zev Sero wrote:<br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div class="Ih2E3d">I can only conclude that if it's pasul for our nisuch, then whatever they do with it doesn't count halachically as nisuch laA"Z, so we don't care. They can call whatever they do whatever they like, but we don't call it nisuch, so the wine remains permitted.</div>
</blockquote><div> </div><div>R Akiva Miller wrote: <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div class="Ih2E3d">
</div>But that's only l'halacha. L'maaseh, RZS is correct that we don't need to study their religious laws, and the reason why -- and I must stress that this is only my own conjecture -- is that both we and they happen to have the same rules.<br>
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The concept of korbanos is ancient. It is from before Har Sinai, before Avraham Avinu, even before Noach, going back to Adam Harishon. It is not a particularly Jewish idea, but not a goyish idea either, but a human one. Of course, the Torah expounds on it, and gives many details. But if some of those details (like what kind of wine may or may not be used) happens to match what the AZ-niks do, I wouldn't be surprised.</blockquote>
<div><br>In my own speculation I have understood this differently. We believe that any article used by an oved AZ would become assur for us to use, I am not sure if any sort of bitul would be possible in a case like this. WRT Yayin Mevushal, I have understood it to mean that we recognize that there are certain laws by which the different AZ religions operate. These are not necessarily the same as our rules however, based on an understanding of their AZ "halachot" the chachamim realized that non-Mevushal wine was effective and non-Mevushal wine was not. It would follow from this why it would be okay for us to use Mevushal wine for Kiddush, as we still consider it wine but recognize that the goyim don't. In order to make a geder around using actual items of AZ, the chachamin made a gezeira around the items considered effective by the ovdei AZ as that was a common concern.<br>
<br>Shavuah tov,<br>~Liron<br></div></div><br>