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<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>From:
Harvey Benton <A
href="mailto:harveybenton@yahoo.com">harveybenton@yahoo.com</A><BR><BR><BR><BR>>>A
number of sources indicate that the Sifrei Torahs we now<BR>have in our
possession may not be the exact (letter for letter) same one as was<BR>given
to Moshe Rabeinu:<BR><BR><BR><BR>Yerushalmi Taanit 4:2 and Soferim 6:4 mention
an episode<BR>where 3 Sifrei Torah were found in the Azara of the Second
Temple<BR>with varying texts.... <BR><BR><BR>Kiddusin 30a mentions the Vav of
Gachon as the middle letter<BR>of the Torah. ....at the<BR>time of the Gemara
they were not expert in chaser and yeter. <BR><BR><BR><BR>The Rambam in Hil.
ST, 8:4 wrote about scrolls that had been<BR>corrected using the Ben-Asher
scroll that he himself used.<<</FONT></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>[snip]</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>TK: All your questions stem from one misconception. As Rambam
formulated it, we say "Ani ma'amin be'emunah sheleimah shekol haTorah hametzuyah
atah veyadeinu hee hanesunah leMoshe Rabbeinu alav hashalom." You
understand that to mean, "The Sefer Torah we have today is EXACTLY the same,
word for word and letter for letter, as the one that was given to Moshe
Rabbeinu. Not one single mistake has EVER crept in or will ever creep in
or can ever creep in. No sofer in history ever has copied a single letter
wrong or ever will, and every sefer Torah in the world is EXACTLY the same as
the one that Moshe Rabeinu received."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Then, since you understand Ani Ma'amin this way, when you find that some
mistakes and discrepancies /have/ crept in over the years -- your faith is
shaken and you don't know how you can say Ani Ma'amin anymore!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>One major clue that you are misreading this Ani Ma'amin is that, as you
point out, Rambam /himself/ "wrote about Torah scrolls that had been
corrected using the Ben-Asher scroll that he himself used"! </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thus, even as he wrote the words of Ani Ma'amin, he himself was very well
aware that changes /had/ crept in over the centuries and that not every sefer
Torah -- and perhaps not even his own personal sefer Torah -- was demonstrably
EXACTLY the same, letter for letter, as the one written by Moshe Rabbeinu.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If Rambam himself was aware that differences existed between different
scrolls, how could he have written "shekol haTorah hametzuyah atah veyadeinu hee
hanesunah leMoshe Rabbeinu"? Obviously, he did not understand "the Torah we have
is the same as the one given to Moshe Rabbeinu" to mean "the Torah we have is
identical in every single letter and no mistake or slight variation in spelling
has ever crept in."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>What Rambam DID mean, I will discuss below.</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT
id=role_document face=Arial color=#000000 size=2><FONT lang=0 face=Arial
color=#000000 size=2 PTSIZE="10" FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2><BR><BR>RHB: >> Gil Student 2001 in Parshas Vayera
Challenge and other<BR>sources on Tikkun Soferim indicate that the Ktav of the
Torah (Ktave Ivrit or<BR>Ktav Ahsurit) nowadays may be different that what was
given to Moshe Rabeinu.<<</FONT></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>TK: It is known that the ktav we have now is not the same ktav that
has always been used, and this, too, is NOT included in "shekol haTorah
hametzuyah atah veyadeinu hee hanesunah leMoshe Rabbeinu."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT
id=role_document face=Arial color=#000000 size=2><FONT lang=0 face=Arial
color=#000000 size=2 PTSIZE="10" FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2><BR>RHB: >> Halachic issues such as making a bracha on a
Sefer Torah<BR>(ST) by a sofer writing it, making a bracha on an Aliya,
reading a pasul ST<BR>publicly on Shabbas...., and fulfilling the mitzvah of
writing a ST in cases of<BR>doubt are all discussed, and for the most part
ruled leniently upon. See Shulchan Aruch OC 143:4, and Mishna Berura.
<<</FONT></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>TK: As long as the Sefer Torah you are using is perfect to the best
of your knowledge and to the best of your ability, it is not pasul, you can make
a bracha on it, you can have an aliyah, you can read from the Torah. You
are obsessing quite unnecessarily over slight differences, as you yourself
know from the very sources you yourself have cited, Shulchan Aruch and Mishna
Berurah.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT
id=role_document face=Arial color=#000000 size=2><FONT lang=0 face=Arial
color=#000000 size=2 PTSIZE="10" FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2><BR><BR>RHB: >> Yemenite ST: The Yemenite ST has at
least 3 differences<BR>(some say 9) when compared to our ST.<BR>They make a
bracha on reading the Torah, and so do we. They may (I do not know) say Zot
Hatorah<BR>during Hagbah, while we for sure do. Is<BR>this incongruous?
How can we (and<BR>perhaps they) both claim to have a correct version at
the same time? <<</FONT></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>TK: "Vezos haTorah asher som Moshe lifnei Bnai Yisrael al pi Hashem
beyad Moshe" does NOT mean, as you seem to think, "This Torah which we are now
holding up in our shul is EXACTLY IDENTICAL in every detail to the sefer Torah
that Moshe Rabbeinu himself wrote." What it does mean, we will discuss
below.</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT
id=role_document face=Arial color=#000000 size=2><FONT lang=0 face=Arial
color=#000000 size=2 PTSIZE="10" FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2><BR><BR><BR><BR>RHB: >> If someone from a Sefardi or
Ashkenazi background, davened<BR>at a Yemenite minyan, would he be allowed to
make a Bracha on an Aliya, seeing<BR>as his mesorah is different?
<<</FONT></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>TK: I believe the answer to that question is "yes."</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT
id=role_document face=Arial color=#000000 size=2><FONT lang=0 face=Arial
color=#000000 size=2 PTSIZE="10" FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2>RHB: >> Would he<BR>have to fast if CV a ST was
dropped in front of him? (According to Sfardi/Ashkenazi tradition,
the<BR>Yemenite ST<BR>should be viewed as Pasul, and thus perhaps not
necessitating a fast.) <<</FONT></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>TK: An interesting halachic shaila, you would have to ask a rav if
that happened, but I believe, again, that the answer is yes, an Ashkenazi would
have to fast if a Yemenite sefer Torah was dropped.</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT
id=role_document face=Arial color=#000000 size=2><FONT lang=0 face=Arial
color=#000000 size=2 PTSIZE="10" FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2><BR><BR><BR><BR>RHB: >> Rambam Pr. No. 8 and Zot Hatorah
said during Hagbah, both<BR>state that the ST we have today is the same as
that was given to Moshe<BR>Rabeinu. If we say either of these
two<BR>statements, and/or teach them to our children or Baalei Teshuvot (Aish
Hatorah<BR>is big on Rambam No. 8), are we (or the Yemenites or both) not over
on<BR>1. Midvar Sheker Tirchak <<</FONT></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>TK: No, it is not sheker to say "Our Torah is the same as Moshe
Rabbeinu's."</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT
id=role_document face=Arial color=#000000 size=2><FONT lang=0 face=Arial
color=#000000 size=2 PTSIZE="10" FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2>RHB: >> 2. Ganeivas Daat and
<<</FONT></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>TK: No, we are not deceiving anyone.</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT
id=role_document face=Arial color=#000000 size=2><FONT lang=0 face=Arial
color=#000000 size=2 PTSIZE="10" FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2>RHB: >> 3. Lifnei Iver (in the sense that<BR>they may
tell it to someone else) if in fact it turns out that someone does not<BR>have
an accurate (to the letter) ST? <<</FONT></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>TK: Again, we are not deceiving anyone.</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT
id=role_document face=Arial color=#000000 size=2><FONT lang=0 face=Arial
color=#000000 size=2 PTSIZE="10" FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2><BR><BR><BR><BR>RHB: >> We are not doubting that the
essence of the ST that we have<BR>today is the same as what Moshe Rabeinu had,
but only that in actual Letters<BR>and/or Script, it may not be 100% "exactly
the same." <<</FONT></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>TK: The statement "our Torah is the same as Moshe's" MEANS "the
essence is the same and the wording is as close to identical as human error will
allow over the course of thousands of years."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT
id=role_document face=Arial color=#000000 size=2><FONT lang=0 face=Arial
color=#000000 size=2 PTSIZE="10" FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2><BR><BR><BR><BR>RHB: >> Finally, should a Sofer be
required, in advance to inform<BR>potential purchasers of ST and/or his
services, about the current situation<BR>regarding ST? Should he be required
to<BR>fully disclose, that the person purchasing a ST may only be fulfilling
the<BR>mitzvah to write a ST in a Bidieved manner?<BR>If he does not fully
disclose this, is the resultant sale tainted?
<<</FONT></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>TK: It seems to you that there is a halacha -- or should be a halacha
-- something like this: "A sofer is halachically obligated to
state, when selling a sefer Torah, that slightly different texts exist and that
until Eliyahu Hanavi comes, he cannot be 100% certain that the sefer
Torah he has written is identical to Moshe Rabbeinu's sefer Torah down to
the last kutzo shel yud." </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Since as you yourself wrote, the Rambam and many other authorities over the
centuries were well aware that slight differences had arisen between different
sifrei Torah, why do you suppose that none of them until you ever thought of
codifying such a halacha? Why do you suppose there is no such
halacha in the Shulchan Aruch or the Mishna Berurah?<FONT id=role_document
face=Arial color=#000000 size=2><FONT lang=0 face=Arial color=#000000 size=2
PTSIZE="10" FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
face=Arial color=#000000 size=2><BR><BR><BR><BR></DIV></FONT></FONT></FONT>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>>>>>></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>As I said at the beginning, all of your questions are really one, and all
stem from the same misconception, which we have now cleared up.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>So what then DO we mean when we say, "Ani ma'amin shekol haTorah hametzuyah
atah veyadeinu hee hanesunah leMoshe Rabbeinu"? What DO we mean when we
publicly declare, "Zos haTorah asher som Moshe lifnei Bnai Yisrael"?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>To answer that question, you have to consider what alternative, false
beliefs Rambam was trying to counter with his formulation of "Ani
ma'amin." If you did NOT believe that our Torah is Toras Moshe, what else
might you falsely believe?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Well, here is a news flash: Wellhausen and the 19th century Bible
critics and Reformers were NOT the first people in history to deny the Divine
Authorship of the Torah!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Many centuries before they ever came along, there were people who said that
the Torah was made up by people and not by G-d. There were people who
denied that Moshe had ever lived or that Ma'amad Har Sinai had ever
happened.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>There were also people who believed that G-d had given the Torah to Moshe
but who claimed that the Jews had deliberately falsified and changed the
Torah!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>There were Christians who claimed that they were the "true Israel" and that
the Jews had deliberately re-written and falsified their Torah to delete all
references to their man-god, Yoshke.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>There were Muslims who claimed that Avraham's true heir was Yishmael, and
that it was Yishmael, not Yitzchak, who had been bound on the altar at the
akeida. They said that the Jews had deliberately rewritten and falsified
the Torah in order to remove Yishmael from his deserved place in the
Torah.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>There were Sadducees and Karaites who denied the authority of the Rabbanim
and claimed that the Rabbanim could not be trusted to faithfully transmit the
Torah.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Every heresy of modern times -- the denial of the Divine authorship of the
Torah, the claim that it was written by people for their own purposes, the claim
that the Rabbis wrote it to bolster their authority over the ignorant masses --
all had their precursors in earlier times. And it is against these notions
that we declare, "The Torah we have is Toras Moshe."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Rambam wrote in one of the Ani Ma'amins, "Zos haTorah lo sehei
muchlefes." Some people read it literally, childishly -- and mistakenly --
as, "This Torah will never change" -- and if they find that Yemenite sifrei
Torah differ slightly from Ashkenazi sifrei Torah, their whole emunah is
shaken! They start to worry about whether they are apikorsim because they
don't say "Ani ma'min" with a whole heart, or whether Rambam really meant it or
knew what he was talking about, and so on and so on. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>And all this angst is over a simple misunderstanding! "Zos haTorah lo
sehei muchlefes" means "Our Torah will never be EXCHANGED for another
one." The Christian claim of a 'New Testament' is false, there is not and
will not be a 'New Testament' -- nor will Hashem ever exchange His Chosen People
for some other People. There is never going to be a Torah in which Avraham
is tested with Akeidas Yishmael. There is never going to be a Torah in
which the day of rest is Sunday. There is never going to be a Torah in
which Jesus and Mohammed are prophets.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>"The Torah we have is the same one that was given to Moshe Rabbeinu"
MEANS: Hashem wrote the Torah and gave it to Moshe, and we have faithfully
transcribed and transmitted it, down through the centuries, to the best of our
ability. We are the true heirs of the Dor Hamidbar, we learned the
Torah from our parents and we will teach it to our children, ad bias goel,
we are loyal and faithful to the Torah and we have always been loyal and
faithful to our holy Torah. "Ha'azinu hashamayim va'adaberah...." --
Heaven and earth bear witness that we are the same people who received the
Torah, we are the sons of Yisrael, and we still keep the Torah that Moshe
Rabbeinu taught us. "Torah tziva lanu Moshe, morasha kehillas
Yakov."<BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff><BR></FONT><B><FONT color=#0000ff>--Toby
Katz<BR>==========<BR><BR></FONT><FONT lang=0 face=Arial color=#000000 size=2
PTSIZE="10" FAMILY="SANSSERIF"></B>-------------------- </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT
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color=#000000 size=2 PTSIZE="10" FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2><BR></FONT> </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></FONT></FONT><BR><BR><BR><DIV CLASS="aol_ad_footer" ID="6cf5a03d60729465b3e8bf4f6ee2c654"><FONT style="color: black; font: normal 10pt ARIAL, SAN-SERIF;"><HR style="MARGIN-TOP: 10px">One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. <a href="http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025">Try it now</a>.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>