<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 9:24 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:T613K@aol.com">T613K@aol.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
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<div><font style="background-color: transparent;" size="2" color="#000000" face="Arial">From: "<a href="mailto:kennethgmiller@juno.com" target="_blank">kennethgmiller@juno.com</a>" <a href="mailto:kennethgmiller@juno.com" target="_blank">kennethgmiller@juno.com</a><div class="Ih2E3d">
<br><br>>>
MB 675:9 quotes the Olas Shmuel that "although by us, each one lights by
himself, nevertheless a woman does not have to light because they are merely
tafel to the men (havayan rak tefeilos la'anashim). If they want to light, they
do say the brachos, because it is like other mitzvos aseh shehazman grama that
they can say brachos on. When the man is not home, the woman should light,
because she *is* obligated, and *with* a bracha -- and not by having a child
light."<br><br><br></div>....I find it particularly noteworthy that he invokes the
concept of "mitzvos aseh shehazman grama" and the (Ashkenazi) psak that women
*do* say the brachos on such mitzvos. This seems to contradict his own admission
that women *are* obligated on their own. <<</font></div><font style="background-color: transparent;" size="2" color="#000000" face="Arial"></font></div>
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<div><br>Akiva Miller</div>
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<div>>>>><br>He didn't say they are obligated "on their own" -- you
added those words. He just said women are obligated and are yotzei
with their husbands' lighting. It seems to me exactly the same as saying
kiddush on Shabbos. I don't see where your problem is or why you think
there is a contradiction in the MB. You created the contradiction by adding
the words "on their own." I guess you thought those words were implied
when he said "women are obligated" but that's not correct. A woman can
either be yotzei with her husband's kiddush on Shabbos or she can make her own
if she doesn't want to wait until he comes home from shul. The
facts that she is 1. obligated in kiddush and 2. yotzei with another person's
kiddush are not a contradiction.</div>
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<div>--Toby Katz</div>
<div>=========</div></font></div></font></div></blockquote><div><br> >>>>><br> If Reb. Akiva Miller doesn't mind me jumping in here, this is very different case from Kiddush on shabbat. In that case, she has an obligation to say kiddush, which she fufils through the principle of Shom'ea ke-Oneh. Any adult male can fufil his obligation in the same manner. This is true for most (maybe all, but I don't know that for a fact) verbal mitzvot, including brachot, tefilah and Krias shm'a.<br>
<br> Channukah is totally different animal, as it is a non-verbal mitzvah. Not only that, but it is not an individual mitzvah, the Mitzvah is "ner Ish u-Beito." Right before citing the teshuva of the Olas-Shumel, MB says explictly that either husband or wife can fufill this obligation for the household, so long as the other household members are present and hear the blessings. He then goes on to quote the teshuva, which is not about fufilling the obligation, but about the ashkenazic custom of fulfilling Mehadrin minhamehadrin by having every adult member of the household light. He excludes women, because they are tafel to the men, but permits them to say a bracha if they choose,as with other mitzvot mitvot aseh she-hazman grama,as said before. <br>
<br> What's strange about this, I think, is that none of it is on the level of basic obligation. We're talking about how to do Mehadrin min ha-mehadrin here. Invoking the fact that women can make a bracha on mitzvat aseh she-hazman grama in which they are not obligated an explanation for why they can make a bracha here is strange. Her obligation is fufulled by her husband, sure. So are the obligations of all her adult sons at home, but they still make a bracha on their menorahs for Mehadrin min ha-Mehadrin.<br>
<br> What I think is happening is this: In terms of membership in the
household, the wife (or all women? Does this apply to unmarried adult
daughters too? Unclear.) is not a separate member for mehadrin min ha-mehadrin candlelighting
purposes, she counts with her husband. But if this is the case, then Olas Shmuel is stuck. Because that means that when women DO decide to light candles with their families, they shouldn't make a bracha. After all, they don't count for Mehadrin min ha-mehadrin at all. (By this logic, women lighting neither adds nor subtracts hidur, I think.) But he knows that women make a bracha in this case. So he treats it like Mitzvot aseh she-hazman grama where they have no obligation, but they are fufulling it anyway, even though what it really is is Hidur mitzvat aseh she-hazman grama, in which she doesn't contribute to the hiddur, but may make the bracha anyway.<br>
<br> Frankly, I don't find this very compelling, but I understand why he takes this approach. He's stuck. Women are obviously obligated, but equally obviously don't participate in Mehadrin min Ha-mehadrin. However, when they do, they bless. So this is his explanation.<br>
<br> Jesse A.<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Arial;">
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