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<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2>From: Micha Berger <A
href="mailto:micha@aishdas.org">micha@aishdas.org</A><BR><BR>RMB: The
Besht was known as a Baal Shem. The Gra, for his learning in<BR>halakhah. Apples
and oranges.</FONT></DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial
color=#000000 size=2></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV>TK: No, the Besht was known as one of the greatest leaders of Klal
Yisrael in the past several centuries, the founder of the Chassidic movement,
and as the person who did more to save Eastern European Jewry from shmad and
haskala than any other single person in the past three hundred
years.<BR><BR>RMB: If "Gadol haDor" relates to halachic
leadership.....</DIV>
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<DIV>TK: Stop right there. "Gadol hador" relates to being the
greatest Torah leader, or one of the greatest, of your generation.</DIV>
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<DIV>RMB: However, RnTK's point here is inaccurate.<BR><BR>First, the
Ramchal died 14 years before the Besh"t. He was recognized,<BR>despite dying at
39. He, like the Besh"t, didn't become famous on the<BR>weight of his pesaqim.
But you can't conclude anything from the fact<BR>that today we don't turn to
people for leadership, to even look to see<BR>who is great, until they reach
their 50s.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>TK: If somebody becomes famous, fulfills his life's work, and dies --
all before the age of fifty -- then in his case, it is not necessary to turn
fifty before becoming "the" godol hador, if there is such a thing as "the" godol
hador. (I don't think that every dor has just one person who so towers over his
contemporaries as to leave the question fully settled -- only once in a while is
there such a dor, or such a person.) In most cases, gedolim are only
recognized as such late in their lives or even posthumously.<BR><BR>RMB:
BTW, is fame, in the form of being known and actually providing<BR>leadership,
part of your definition of a gadol? </DIV>
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<DIV>TK: Yes.</DIV>
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<DIV>RMB: What if the greatest<BR>mind of the generation is sitting in the
back of a tiny beis medrash<BR>somewhere going totally unnoticed?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>TK: Then he is not the godol hador.<BR><BR><BR></DIV></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=0 face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"
PTSIZE="10"><BR><B>--Toby Katz<BR>=============<BR></B>"If you don't read the
newspaper you are uninformed; <BR>if you do read the newspaper you are
misinformed."<BR>--Mark Twain<BR>Read *Jewish World Review* at <A
href="http://jewishworldreview.com/">http://jewishworldreview.com/</A></FONT></DIV></DIV></FONT><BR><BR><BR><DIV CLASS="aol_ad_footer" ID="7fa88178d1f2bcbaa093585cd75a55aa"><FONT style="color: black; font: normal 10pt ARIAL, SAN-SERIF;"><HR style="MARGIN-TOP: 10px">Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. <a href="http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010">Try it now</a>.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>