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<font size=3>At 03:11 AM 11/7/2008, Daniel Eidensohn wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">R' Yitzchok Levine wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">In light of this, I have to
wonder why some think that all "negatives" about our
predecessors should be suppressed. What I am talking about is the
tendency of some to go so far as to deny that certain things took place
in the past if they do not jive with our present view of what the
religious world should look like. As I have quipped more than once,
"There are Holocaust deniers and there are Orthodox
deniers."<br>
</blockquote>This is rather a gross oversimplication of a complex issue.
We can not generalize from this Ramban for three reasons 1) He was
criticized by the Maharal for saying such a thing because Maharal asserts
we can only ascribe error when Chazal tell us there is error. 2) The
Ramban's view is in fact alluded to in the Zohar as R' Chavell discusses
on this verse. 3) Hirsch is not making such a generalization but is
simply saying that Chazal tell us that the Avos erred in certain matters
and thus weren't infallible.<br><br>
Thus we can say that there is absolutely no evidence to support the
assertion that the Ramban is teaching us that **we** have the right to
ascribe error to the Avos or anyone else without a source in Chazal.
Furthermore the citation from Hirsch also at most says - that Chazal
tells us that the Avos erred - but he doesn't say that we can ascribe
errors without support from Chazal.<br><br>
Thus it is problematic to read "there are Orthodox deniers"
into the words of either the Ramban or Hirsch - neither would have agreed
with you.<br><br>
Daniel Eidensohn</font></blockquote><br>
I believe that you have misinterpreted what I wrote above. (I may not
have been as clear as could have been also.) <br><br>
My quip <font size=3>"There are Holocaust deniers and there are
Orthodox deniers." was referring to those who would suppress and/or
deny what are historical facts. Let me give you an example.<br><br>
</font>Reb Zundel Berman of Berman books fame was one of the first young
men to learn in Lakewood. He told me the following. "Reb Aaron
Kotler said, 'Three years in kollel is enough for anyone.'" I asked
him, "Did you yourself actually here this?" He replied,
"Yes." (Now I do not want to get into a discussion about
whether Reb Aaron would say the same thing today. I am willing to grant
that we live in different times, and he might very well take a different
approach if he were alive today.) <br><br>
I once related what Reb Aaron said about kollel to someone I was talking
to. A fellow who was standing nearby, who was not part of the
conversation and whom I did not know, almost shouted, "It's a lie!
It's a lie! He never said such a thing!" I looked at him and said,
"Are you telling me that Reb Zundel Berman lied to me?" He
replied, "Yes!" <br><br>
So here you have an example of what I call an Orthodox denier. Please
see<br><br>
<font size=3>
"<a href="http://www.jewishpress.com/content.cfm?contentid=16669">My
Mind Is Made Up. Do Not Confuse Me With The Facts!</a>"
<b>The Jewish Press</b>, August 25, 2004 pages 7 & 77. <br><br>
</font>for more on this. <br><br>
You may also want to read Facing the Truths of History by Rabbi Dr. J. J.
Schachter at
<a href="http://yuriets.yeshivalive.com/TU8_Schachter.pdf" eudora="autourl">
http://yuriets.yeshivalive.com/TU8_Schachter.pdf</a> <br><br>
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