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<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2>From: Micha Berger <A
href="mailto:micha@aishdas.org">micha@aishdas.org</A><BR><BR><BR>On Sun, Oct 05,
2008, Danny Schoemann wrote:<BR>:> We do see cases of angels making mistakes.
Some examples:<BR><BR>:> - The Bnei Elohim were supposedly angles who
seduced humans<BR><BR>:> - The angels that went to destroy Sdom had to
admit to Lot that all<BR>:> was not in their hands, after bragging they
were in charge.<BR><BR>:> - In Chagiga there's a story of the Angel of
Death's gofer killing the<BR>:> wrong person - and it's made to sound
like a non-rare occurrence.<BR><BR>On Sun, Oct 05, 2008, T613K@aol.com
wrote:<BR>: I've always understood this kind of stories in a "dibra Torah
beloshon bnei <BR>: Adam" kind of way, that they are stories told as seen
from a human <BR>: perspective with lessons that we humans are supposed to learn
from them...<BR><BR>>>So you do believe that you can declare a story
in the chumash an<BR>allegory based on your own reasoning? I am surprised.
Personally,<BR>I would distinguish between the first two cases which are pesuqim
in<BR>chumash and the third, which is aggadita....<BR><BR><BR>....If someone
prays to something without bechirah, then the act is silly --<BR>why ask
something that has no choice? It would be like, "Rock, may it<BR>be thy will not
to fall when I let go of you." <<</FONT></DIV><FONT
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<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2>1. When I said, "they are stories told as seen from a human
perspective" I did not mean that the stories in the Chumash were
"allegories" that never actually happened! In fact, I'm amazed that you
took it that way. I meant that the stories are told from a human point of
view, not from G-d's point of view, events as they are seen here below and not
as they are seen from Above. I meant that when creatures that don't
have bechira are depicted as acting "badly" it's because from a human
perspective it looks that way, but in actuality they can only do what Hashem
tells them to do. </FONT></DIV>
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size=2>So if the Bnai Elohim were angels who seduced humans, then they could
only have done so if Hashem wanted them to do that. Of course that is a
big IF -- it is by no means clear from the Chumash that the Bnai Elohim were
malachim and I quite doubt that they were. There are other interpretations
that make more sense to me. </FONT></DIV>
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size=2>The same is true in regard to the malachim who came to Lot. I
believe that story really happened, I don't think it's an allegory and I didn't
say it's an allegory. (I also don't think it was part of Avraham's dream,
I don't think the whole visit of the three angels was all a dream or a
vision. There are different meforshim and I claim the privilege of
preferring those I prefer. It makes no sense to me that the angels were
all a vision but Lot was really saved and Sodom was really destroyed.)
Whatever the angels said to Lot they could have said only according to Hashem's
will. If it looked like they made mistakes or had to admit error, that
could only be the way it was made to appear according to human
understanding. </FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2>A slightly analogous situation would be Hashem saying, "Na'aseh Adam"
speaking to His pamalya, not because He needed their advice or input, but in
order to teach human kings and all human beings the midah of anava and the
positive value of consulting underlings, to teach by example -- Mah Hu rachum
and so on.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2>2. Angels don't have bechira, but they do have intelligence, and
therefore speaking to them is not a mindless act like speaking to a rock.
I don't believe that making a request of angels is the same thing as "praying"
to them, but we seem to be going round the same mulberry bush.
I don't think saying to the angels on Friday night "Borchuni lesholom" is
davening to them any more than asking a Rebbe for a bracha is davening to
him. The angels will bentsh you whether you ask them to do so or not, you
are only acknowledging that that's what they do and being courteous to
them. If you ask a friend to put in a good word for you with his boss, you
are not praying to your friend. I know you skip the line in Sholom
Aleichem that asks the malachim to bless you but do you also skip the passage in
the Gemara that says the malachim bentsh you? Do you skip the pasuk in
Chumash where Yakov asks the angel to bless to him?</DIV>
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<DIV><FONT lang=0 face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"
PTSIZE="10"><BR><B>--Toby
Katz<BR>GCT<BR>=============<BR><BR></B><BR></FONT></DIV></FONT><BR><BR><BR><DIV><FONT style="color: black; font: normal 10pt ARIAL, SAN-SERIF;"><HR style="MARGIN-TOP: 10px">New <B>MapQuest Local</B> shows what's happening at your destination. Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. <A title="http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000001" href="http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000001" target="_blank">Try it out</A>!</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>