<div dir="ltr"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 8:07 AM, Dov Kay <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dov_kay@hotmail.co.uk">dov_kay@hotmail.co.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
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As the one who started this thread, I should have given the source for the Ramban's statement about praying to angels. It is in Toras Hashem Temima. In it, he refers specifically to the piyut machnisei rachamim, and says that it should not be said. It seems that he considers this sort of thing AZ mamash, as he then goes on to discuss the chet ho'egel, which also started as the desire for an intermediary. He also quotes a Yerushalmi in the beginning of Berachos (daf 9, IIRC), which contrasts the King of Kings with a human king, as the latter requires ministers and other intermediaries, while HKBH wants us to appeal to him directly. I don't have the original in front of me right now, but I can provide a full quote if anyone wants.<br>
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The Mossad HaRav Kook edition of Selichos also cites the Shibolei HaLeket as defending the recitation of machnisei rachamim.<br>
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I should note that in Yeshivas Ohr Somayach in Jerusalem, machnisei rachamim was not recited, and I imagine that this is the minhag of Yeshivas Mir, as most of OS's minhagim came from there. <br>
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In practice, I am in RMB's boat, in that I am usually behind and am grateful to have an excuse for something to skip.<br>
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The MHK edition also refers to editions which changed the phraseology of the offending stanza in the piyut of the 13 middos so that we express the wish that the midas horachamim should show us favour, rather than beseeching the midah itself. Goldschmidt, the editor, isn't impressed with these efforts because they distort the poetry of the piyut.<br>
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Kol tuv<br>
Dov Kay<br></div></blockquote><div><br>Rav Schwab was reproted to have said:<br><blockquote>Q: Why do we recite Maran divishmaya after machinisei Rachamim?<br>A: In order to emphasize LACH mishchanan after saying machnisei Rachamim we are still Mischanein ONLY to HKBH.<br>
</blockquote><br>Apprarently Brueur's and the Yekke community in genreal has not been so concerned re: the Theological consequences of Machnisei Rachamim. I wrote an "apologetic" post on this practice myself many years ago. I will BEH rehahsh it soon<br>
<br> <br></div></div><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Kesiva vaChasima Tova<br>Best Wishes for the New Year 5769<br>RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com<br>see: <a href="http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/">http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/</a><br>
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