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<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2>From: Dov Kay <A
href="mailto:dov_kay@hotmail.co.uk">dov_kay@hotmail.co.uk</A><BR><BR>>>As
we get stuck into our Selichos, I was wondering what listmembers do about the
selichos which involve petitioning things/entities other than G-d, eg machnisei
rachamim, the pizmon of the 13 middos, in which we petition the middas
horachamim of HKBH.... I, on the one hand, have R. Toby Katz's accusation
of arrogance ringing in my ears. On the other hand, I have my Goldschmidt
edition of the selichos, which quotes both the Rambam and Ramban decrying the
practice of davening to angels.... </FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2>>>>>><BR>To avoid any problem of "arrogance" or of being
disrespectful to prominent rabbanim and poskim who do say these
Selichos, aseh lecha rav -- ask a shaila of an actual rav whom you respect and
whose psak you are prepared to abide by.</FONT></DIV><FONT
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<DIV>As for the question of praying to angels, I know that this has been
extensively discussed on Avodah but I will reiterate my own opinion
anyway: when you ask an angel to do you a favor or to please carry
out the mission he is anyway contracted to do, that is not "praying" to the
angel any more than saying to a friend "Please put a kvitel in the kosel for me"
is praying to your friend.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I said it in the context of singing Sholom Aleichem on Friday night.
The Gemara says that if the house is Shabbosdig when the men come home, the
angels who accompany them bless the home. When you say to the malachim
"Borchuni lesholom" you are just validating in song form that you have made your
home Shabbosdig and would now like them to carry out their mission as they said
they would do (and they will do it even if you don't sing Sholom Aleichem, but
it's friendly and polite to welcome and acknowledge the angels who came to
visit you anyway).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I understand all references to malachim in Tanach and in the liturgy in a
similar way. You are only asking them to do what they would do anyway (or
maybe wouldn't and won't do, if you are not deserving). Think of
this: every mitzva you do, and every word of tefillah or of Torah that you
utter, creates its own malach who flies Upstairs and becomes another sanegor for
you. (And you create the other kind of angels, too, who become your
mekatragim, but we prefer not to think about those.) </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Like witnesses in a human court, these angels, these spiritual beings or
agents, can influence the outcome of the case but they do not have the authority
to pass sentence on you or to carry out the sentence. Only the Judge has
that authority. Unlike human witnesses, these angels cannot perjure
themselves -- they do not have free will and ultimately can only do what Hashem
tells them to do. Your prior knowledge that you are /going/ to be saying
to the angels, "Please go up and put in a good word for me" ideally will
influence your actions all year long, because you know that those
angels can only do you any good if you yourself have so behaved as to earn their
aid.<BR></DIV></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT lang=0 face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"
PTSIZE="10"><BR><B>--Toby
Katz<BR>=============<BR><BR></B><BR></FONT></DIV></FONT><BR><BR><BR><DIV><FONT style="color: black; font: normal 10pt ARIAL, SAN-SERIF;"><HR style="MARGIN-TOP: 10px">Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? <A title="http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1209382257x1200540686/aol?redir=http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001" href="http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1209382257x1200540686/aol?redir=http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001" target="_blank">Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators</A>.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>