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<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2>From: "Chana Luntz" <A
href="mailto:Chana@kolsassoon.org.uk">Chana@kolsassoon.org.uk</A><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2>>I think that the earlier generations didn't list KOM as
a<BR>>requirement for gerus because it literally did not occur to them
that<BR>>somebody who was not born a Jew would approach a court and say, "I
am<BR>>not presently a Jew but I want to become one, al me-nas to be a
porek<BR>>ol, a rasha, a sinner, or a tinok shenishba."
[--TK]<BR><BR>>>But your premise is false - because there are cases,
discussed cases in<BR>the gemora, about somebody coming to the court without
necessarily any<BR>intention to keep all the mitzvos - such as the case of the
fellow who<BR>came to Hillel and said he wanted to convert on condition he could
be<BR>Kohen Gadol.... </FONT></DIV><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>
<DIV><BR>And then there is the case being discussed between RMB and RMS in
the<BR>Rambam, about the wives of Shimshon and Shlomo HaMelech....</DIV>
<DIV> <BR>And then there is the case of the Kusim whose conversions were
very<BR>dubious and debated.....<<<BR><BR><BR></DIV></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>>>>>><BR>My understanding of the case of the fellow who came
to Hillel and said he wanted to convert on condition he could be Kohen Gadol was
that Hillel accepted him /as a candidate/ for conversion, as a student, on
the assumption that after he taught him Torah, the fellow would then
realize on his own that his demand was ridiculous (but would still want to
go ahead and convert).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In the other cases you mention there is an element of coercion involved,
where the wives of Shimshon and of Shlomo were either forced to convert or
given strong inducements to do so. The same is with the Cusim (who if I am
not mistaken are the same as the Shomronim/Samaritans) -- and precisely because
their conversions were coerced (and also because they never totally gave up the
practices of their former A'Z religion), their status as Jews was /always/
questioned and they were /never/ fully accepted. That was the point, just
BTW, of the "Good Samaritan" story in the NT -- that Jews always thought the
Samaritans were "bad" and kept them at arm's length and never fully accepted
them, but Yoshke accepted them and showed how the despised Samaritans could be
better than the "real" Jews.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You didn't mention the similar case of the Idumeans (Edomim) of the second
BHM'K era, out of whose ranks came Herod. They likewise were forced to
convert to Judaism and their status as Jews was always under a cloud. One
of the reasons Herod beautified the BHM'K was to gain acceptance from the Jews
as a "for real, honest to goodness real boy"! -- oh wait, that was
Pinocchio -- well, as a real Jew. Of course his bloody massacres of Jewish
leaders and talmidei chachamim didn't help his acceptance project
much.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Anyway, I think the question of the halachic status of somebody who was
forced or compelled to convert to Judaism is somewhat different from the
question of somebody who comes to a bais din for conversion on a purely
voluntary basis -- and either states openly "I won't keep mitzvos" or has mental
reservations when saying "I accept the mitzvos." I am actually not sure
whether the coerced convert is more or less likely to be considered a halachic
Jew than a pure [but insincere] volunteer. </DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=0 face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"
PTSIZE="10"><STRONG></STRONG><BR><B>--Toby
Katz<BR>=============<BR><BR></B><BR></FONT></DIV></FONT><BR><BR><BR><DIV><FONT style="color: black; font: normal 10pt ARIAL, SAN-SERIF;"><HR style="MARGIN-TOP: 10px">Psssst...Have you heard the news? <A title="http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014" href="http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014" target="_blank">There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com</A>.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>