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<DIV>
<DIV>In Avodah Digest, Vol 25, Issue 305 dated 8/26/2008 "Chana Luntz"
<Chana@kolsassoon.org.uk><BR> writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2><BR>>>An alternative halachic paradigm that could possibly be
applicable is that<BR>of tnai.... In that sense, the way KOM
is usually understood (and as you<BR>have articulated it) appears to resemble
a tnai on the giur. That is, the<BR>convert says, or is deemed to have
said (or is required to say), I convert<BR>on condition that I accept that I
am obligated that I keep the mitzvoth -<BR>and then if he does not accept the
mitzvot, the giur is never chal. This<BR>fits rather better with what
you quote as your father's view that if the<BR>person at some later time did
accept the mitzvoth, the giur would be chal at<BR>that time, than what appears
to be the more common view in circulation at<BR>the moment that conversions
can be completely invalidated by showing that<BR>the person was not
immediately after the conversion, shomer mitzvos....
</FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>[snip]</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT
id=role_document face=Arial color=#000000 size=2><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>And as I
have indicated, the intrinsic argument is difficult, because then<BR>the codes
really ought to say: the requirements for giur are: a) mila; b)<BR>tevila; c)
korban and d) KOM (not necessarily in that order). Even if it<BR>was a
rabbinic requirement, learnt out from Bechoros 30b, one would have<BR>expected
it to be listed in the codes as one of the necessary elements.<BR>That is,
trying to leave aside the politics, the textual difficulty.
People<BR>are so convinced that KOM is an intrinsic requirement, that they
keep trying<BR>to read the sources as saying that. But the language one
would expect to<BR>see in such a case is just not there. And that is
what makes this tricky. <BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> >>>>>></DIV>
<DIV>As I wrote in another letter, trying to become a ger without keeping the
mitzvos would be like to trying to become an American so you can be an American
gangster. To me KOM seems to be so intrinsic to being a Jew that it just
would not have occurred to any generation before the Reform movement that there
could even be such a concept as "a Jew who does not keep mitzvos." There
could be such a thing as a Jew who is porek ol, a rasha, a sinner, a bad person,
but there couldn't be such a thing as a Jewish identity DEFINED other than "the
ones who are beholden by the bris, the ones who are subject to the Torah."
I think that the earlier generations didn't list KOM as a requirement for gerus
because it literally did not occur to them that somebody who was not born a Jew
would approach a court and say, "I am not presently a Jew but I want to become
one, al me-nas to be a porek ol, a rasha, a sinner, or a tinok
shenishba." If you had said any such thing to a bais din before
the 19th century, they would have said, "This--does--not--compute." If you
had said to them, "I want to convert al me-nas to be a Tzedoki, or a
Karaite" I do not believe that any court would have accepted such a ger
(unless it was a Tzedoki or a Karaite court). KOM was so
intrinsically part of the definition of being a Jew that they didn't even think
of listing it as a separate requirement for conversion -- it would have seemed
tautological to them -- like saying, "In order to be a Jew, you have to be a
Jew."</DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=0 face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2 PTSIZE="10"
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><B><BR></B><BR><B>--Toby
Katz<BR>=============<BR><BR></B><BR></FONT></DIV></FONT></FONT><BR><BR><BR><DIV><FONT style="color: black; font: normal 10pt ARIAL, SAN-SERIF;"><HR style="MARGIN-TOP: 10px">It's only a deal if it's where <I>you</I> want to go. Find your travel deal <A title="http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047" href="http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047" target="_blank"><B>here</B></A>.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>