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style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>Old
TK: Non-recognition of Orthodox rabbis who reject first-degree austritt is
second degree austritt. </FONT></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#000000
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size=2>Nobody seems to advocate that in America anymore, for various
reasons. </FONT></DIV>
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<DIV class=gmail_quote><BR>RRW: >>I don't agree. YU , OU,
RCA have been shunned DAVKA because of some degree of co-ioepration with
R's and C's. With regard to both military and hospital types of
chaplaincy such co-operation is indispensable. It simply works that way.
And you seem to suggest in an earlier post that it can be avoided. It is
virtually impossible.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>TK: YU and the RCA have been "shunned" because the
rest of the Torah world considered them to be dead wrong about some very
important issues, but the "shunning" is nothing like what went on in
Frankfurt. It's more "coolness" than actual shunning. The boundaries
between YU/Modern Orthodoxy and yeshivish/black hat Orthodox are extremely
porous in America, quite unlike the wall that separated gemeinde from austritt
Orthodoxy in Frankfurt. I personally advocate a degree of coolness towards
YU that falls far short of "shunning." Some of my best friends.....</DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote> </DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>As for the chaplaincy, it is questionable whether it is
permissible for an Orthodox rabbi to be an army chaplain, since it is almost
impossible to avoid interacting with R and C chaplains as colleagues
and fellow officers. In a hospital setting it is easier to avoid the
"other" rabbis.</DIV>
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<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2>Old TK: Partly it has to do with the totally
different communal structure we have in America vs Germany, where there is
no one united community anyway and no one rav who is the authority of the
community. To reject the authority of Rav Hirsch or his successor /in
Frankfurt/ would be the height of chutzpa, and to many it would be literally
unforgivable. No rav in America holds such a communal
position.</FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=gmail_quote><BR>RRW: What we do here in America is NOT
related to Hirschian Austritt</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>TK: Not related at all?! I don't know how it's possible to say
such a thing.</DIV>
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<DIV>Old TK: Personally I advocate austritt of the first degree but not of
the second degree, partly because that is the position that my father and
other advocates of austritt held and partly because it is quite
literally impossible to carry out a policy of austritt in the second degree
-- you would have to be a hermit living in a
cave.</DIV></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=gmail_quote><BR>RRW: But that was Hirsch's point. Remember
[3rd time] an Austritt butcher in Frankfort was not aware of "frum" Geminde
O's until he went out of town on vacation. Shortly before his passing he
reported this story to me and said it was "wrong" in a very stern Yekke way.
To be shut-off from frum Talmud-loving Observant Jews in the same town was
wrong. It was doubly so in the Nazi era. </FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>TK: It was the Gemeinde O's who did wrong originally in the 19th
c. by not accepting the authority of the Rav of their community, who was
also one of the Gedolei Hador, Rav Hirsch. If you have read about the
kinds of pitched battles that went on between O and R and the pure evil
perpetrated by the Reform in Germany, it makes your blood boil to think that
there were Orthodox Jews who were prepared to turn their backs on a tzaddik
yesod olam like Hirsch and make common cause with the Reform -- sworn enemies of
Torah.</DIV>
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<DIV>Old TK: BTW I don't remember my father ever using the word
"austritt" and I am using it rather loosely as a short-hand way of saying
"Don't give C and R rabbis or their movements any public recognition as
rabbis or as movements within Judaism." If somebody can come up with a
better word please let me know.</DIV></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=gmail_quote><BR>RWW: But that is not a Hirschian
model</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>TK: You mean that is not a Frankfurt model. But my father was
very much a Hirschian Jew. He derived his principles from Hirsch.
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=0 face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"
PTSIZE="10"><B><BR></B><BR><B>--Toby
Katz<BR>=============<BR><BR></B><BR></FONT></DIV></FONT><BR><BR><BR><DIV><FONT style="color: black; font: normal 10pt ARIAL, SAN-SERIF;"><HR style="MARGIN-TOP: 10px">Get fantasy football with free live scoring. <A title="http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020" href="http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020" target="_blank">Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today</A>.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>