<div dir="ltr"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 11:58 AM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:T613K@aol.com">T613K@aol.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Arial;"><font size="2" color="#000000" face="Arial"><br><div><font style="background-color: transparent;" size="2" color="#000000" face="Arial">>>>>><br>
Non-recognition of Reform and Conservative RABBIS
and MOVEMENTS is austritt of the first degree, and that is what I'm concerned
about.</font></div></font></div></blockquote><div><br>I agree <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Arial;">
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<div><font style="background-color: transparent;" size="2" color="#000000" face="Arial">Non-recognition of Orthodox rabbis who reject first-degree austritt is
second degree austritt. </font></div>
<div><font style="background-color: transparent;" size="2" color="#000000" face="Arial"></font> </div></font></div></blockquote><div>I agree Icall it asutritt squared<br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
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<div><font style="background-color: transparent;" size="2" color="#000000" face="Arial">Nobody seems to advocate that in America anymore, for various
reasons. </font></div></font></div></blockquote><div><br>I don't agree. YU , OU< RCA have been shunned DAVKA because of some dgre of co-ioepration with R's an C's. with regard to both military and hospital types of chaplaincy such co-operation is indispensable. It simply works that way. And you seem to suggst in an earlier post that it can be avoided. It is virtually impossiblei <br>
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<font style="background-color: transparent;" size="2" color="#000000" face="Arial"> Partly it has to do with the totally different communal
structure we have in America vs Germany, where there is no one united community
anyway and no one rav who is the authority of the community. To reject the
authority of Rav Hirsch or his successor /in Frankfurt/ would be the height of
chutzpa, and to many it would be literally unforgivable. No
rav in America holds such a communal position.</font></div></font></div></blockquote><div><br>What we do her imn America is NOT related to Hirschian Austritt<br><br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
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<div>Personally I advocate austritt of the first degree but not of the second
degree, partly because that is the position that my father and other advocates
of austritt held and partly because it is quite literally impossible to
carry out a policy of austritt in the second degree -- you would have to be a
hermit living in a cave.</div></font></div></blockquote><div><br>But that was Hirsches point. rmember [3rd time] an Austritt butcher in Frnakfort ws not awaere of "frum Geminde O's until he went out of town on vacation. Shortly before his passing he reported this story to me and said it was "wrong" in a very stern Yekke way. To be shut-off rom frum Talmud-loving Observant Jews in the same town was wrong. It was doubly so in teh Nazi era. <br>
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<div>BTW I don't remember my father ever using the word "austritt" and I am
using it rather loosely as a short-hand way of saying "Don't give C and R rabbis
or their movements any public recognition as rabbis or as movements within
Judaism." If somebody can come up with a better word please let me
know.</div></font></div></blockquote><div><br>But hat is not a Hirschian model<br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Arial;">
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<div><font style="background-color: transparent;" size="2" color="#000000" face="Arial"> </font><font size="2" color="#0000ff" face="Arial" lang="0"><b><br></b><br><b>--Toby
Katz<br>=============<br><br></b><br></font></div></font></div></blockquote></div><br>Kol Tuv / Best Regards,<br>RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com<br>see: <a href="http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/">http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/</a><br>
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