<div dir="ltr"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 2:16 AM, <<a href="mailto:T613K@aol.com">T613K@aol.com</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
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<div><font style="background-color: transparent;" size="2" color="#000000" face="Arial">From: "Richard Wolpoe" <a href="mailto:rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com" target="_blank">rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com</a><br></font></div>
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<div><font style="background-color: transparent;" size="2" color="#000000" face="Arial">>>As for your other point about C or R rabbis gaining legitimacy,
the Yeshiva<br>of Hartford made ALL local rabbis viz. O/C/R as honorary board
members even<br>though it was a Torah Umesorah school [founded in 1939} and
people Like R.<br>Shraga Feilb Mendlovich etc. were involved in it as well as
Dr. Joe Kamenetsky<br>later on. Was this conferring "legitimacy" for
those rabbis? It is kind<br>hard to say that. It was a community school
but the tenets of the charter<br>were 100% Orthodox. they did hire a C
rabbi to teach some Hebrew language<br>classes.<br><br>The split came later when
a new generation C rabbi founded Solmon Shechter<br>school. Them the C
rabbis broke with the Ortho Day School. <<</font></div>
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<div>You wrote: "the Yeshiva of Hartford made ALL local rabbis viz. O/C/R
as honorary board members.... Was this conferring "legitimacy" for those
rabbis?"</div>
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<div>Do your ears hear what your mouth is saying? Why did they put "ALL
the local rabbis" on the board? Were they implying that those guys were
actually rabbis? </div></div></font></div></blockquote><div><br>They were conferring leadership roles. They were not defending their brand of Judaism. What it meant was the school was inclusive. I guess it might have made sense to make the presdients of all shuls as members, but the rabbinical posts were more stable<br>
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<div>Oh no of course not, and I'm sure no one thought for a moment that
they meant to imply anything about rabbinical about those clowns, oh no no
no.</div></div></font></div></blockquote><div><br>is the sarcasm really necesary to make your point? <br></div><div><br><br><br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
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<div>If my father had been the rav of Hartford or had anything to do with the
founding of the school, you can bet there wouldn't have been any such board with
quote "ALL the rabbis"!</div></div></font></div></blockquote><div><br>I can also be the schol would have gone under> isntead this school is around since 1939. Few Schoopls outside of NYC can say that. Austitt in ANY small town afaik never worked. If you know otheiwse I chalenge you to produce the evidence <br>
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<div>Now of course the O Jews who put "all the rabbis" on the board did it with
a wink-wink to their own people, "Hey come on guys we're only licking their
toes, we don't /really/ consider them rabbis, but hey, we need kids from their
congregations and money from their people so.... wink wink!"</div></div></font></div></blockquote><div><br>I think they considered them as leaders as clergy but they NEVER conferred any legitimacy upon a non-Hlachic norm. If this distinciton is too subtle for you to buy, that is OK with me but theat is no call for sarcasm<br>
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<div>How well this chanifa worked you can see in your last paragraph: the
C guys went ahead and started their own C school anyway. </div></div></font></div></blockquote><div><br>Actaully your facts are wrong as well as the nature of your attacks. When Rabbi MorrisSilvernam retired Rabbi Howeard Singer came to town and insisted on his OWN austritt asyaing we cannot do bbusines with those Orthos and HE broke away and started Solmon Shchechter. the Previosu non-Austirtt C Rabbis wer content to run their Hebrew schools and give the OPrthos the monopoly on Day Schools. It was DAVKA the Austrit mentality that drw resources,studetns and funds fromn haveing only ONE communiyt day school under O auspices into starting a SPLIT community that divided reesourcsandstudetns and made the school more difficlt to support finanicially. This informtuate split was precisely due to an application of Austritt but this by the C's AGAINST teh O's. There wer fed up with O's running the community's ONLY Day School and Stepp out [the meaning of Austritt} and caused a frfit that extists today. So there were probably dozens of neeshamaos that MIGHT have been brought clsoer to HKBH but isntead found a kind of Austritt and brought closer to the kind of Torah NOT miSiani taugth as SS. Can we thank Asutritt thinking for this? I think so!<br>
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<font size="2" color="#000000" face="Arial"><div><div> They weren't
fooled and they certainly weren't co-opted into becoming Ortho or running the
risk that any of their congregants would become Ortho.</div></div></font></div></blockquote><div><font size="2" color="#000000" face="Arial"><font size="2" color="#0000ff" face="Arial" lang="0"><br><b>--Toby
Katz<br>=============<br></b></font></font> </div><div><br>The C's WERE upset when ther kids came home and aske d how comes there's treif inthe ice box. I rembmer those stories well<br><br><br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
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<div>And what's that bit about hiring a C rabbi to teach Hebrew?! Hebrew
is not loshon hakodesh? Hebrew is a secular subject?!</div></div>
<div> </div></font></div></blockquote><div><br>I don't know HOW you jump to conculsions> no one was saying that Hebrew was NOT part of limudei Kodesh, I was just reporting the facts.This C rabbi FWIW had attended some O institutions and considered HIMSELF frum - albiet he made his parnassa from a C shul. this brings up the other topic of what is a C rabbi and is worhty of its own thread.<br>
<br>I cannot say for certain, but had he been a 100% ideoligcally C rabbi he probably would nto have been given even hebrew. But you have a black and white attitued. The REAL world has a lot of gray. Obviously they felt that this man had a degree in Hebrew Ed. and it was safe enough for himto teach Hebrew. I know the leaders of this institution were major players in Torah u'Mesorah and certainly did not play this game lightly. I am amazed at how people on this list sometimes make things so simple when they are not so simple.<br>
<br>The OU had dozens of non-Mehitza shuls in this era. They all [afaik] had rabbis with Ortho Semicah. And SOME C shuls had O rabbis who were there for keiruv purposes and had been given specific teshuvos to do so.<br><br>
FWIW, I know of a student who was at JTS and became a Chabadnik and the Rebbe told him that "he can stay there so long as . Sha'ul Lieberman is there." so the Rebbecertainly saw some gray areas. There were even Chabaniks in signifcant nubmers at YU. I hardly think that the rebbe was ENDORSING YU by permitting some excpetional students to study there. <br>
<br>This Austrit idea of legitimzing is so highly exaggerated that I cannot fathom it. I have frum friends who graduated Cattholic University and Holy Cross College etc. I(s that Chanifa? <br><br>Let's get real. The Yeshiva of Hartford had studnets from virtually every C shul in my day. And some of those yong men and women became exposed to Torah and became frum. and MANY others becamse exposed and di NOT become frum BUT are amongst the BIGGEST supporters and fundraisers for the School.<br>
<br>Rabbi Julius Berman was a graduate of the yeshiva of Hartford about a decade before I did. Maybe you can discuss these issues with him becuase he was certainly aware of hte dynamics much better than I.<br><br>It almost never ceases to amaze me how people reconstruct history to fit an ideology instead of looking at the facts on the ground.<br>
<br>FWIW, there were bar mitzvahs in the C shuls of classamtes of mine etc. Even those who DID attend knoew better than to daven in the C shul, those from O backgrounds davened earlier and simply went the way they might to a non-frum relative's simcha. <br>
<br>Maybe the MOST simple minded found that the C rabbis "honorary" membership conveyed some kind of approval. But simply most people were not so-minded.<br><br>The C movement DID become more "edgy" when a new generation of Rabbis - led by howard Singer- pushed Somon Schechter school.s the Irony is that the R rabbis seemed more comfortable with supporting the more commuinity and less "Austritt" minded O Day School How ironic!<br>
</div></div><br>RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com<br>see: <a href="http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/">http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/</a>
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