<div dir="ltr"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 11:29 AM, <<a href="mailto:T613K@aol.com">T613K@aol.com</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
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<div><font style="background-color: transparent;" size="2" color="#000000" face="Arial">From: "Richard Wolpoe" <<a href="mailto:rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com" target="_blank">rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>See
The Siyyum of Sota in which 2 rabbis in the same city who do NOT learn<br>from
each other [nocheh to learn] one dies and one is exiled. This sounds a<br>LOT
like the reality of the holocaust, that rabbis who refused to talk<br>were
either killed or exiled from their homes. How prescient of the Talmud<br>to
see that Rabbis who cannot get
along.....<<<br><br></font></div></div></div>
<div>>>>>>></div>
<div>I've heard some pretty far-fetched explanations of what caused the Shoah,
but this is a new one on me. Whenever anyone even hints that such and such
a sin was the "reason" for the Holocaust or that the actions of such and such a
group (Reform, maskilim, Zionists, anti-Zionists) "led to" the Holocaust, or
that a particular group somehow "deserved" to die or brought their fate on
themselves, there are always cries of outraged indignation. Let me be the
first to express outraged indignation on this occasion. It is outrageous
to suggest that the principles of austritt ("rabbis who refused to talk to
each other") somehow led to or triggered the Holocaust or were foreseen by the
Talmud as the reason for chachamim being "either killed or exiled" in the
Shoah. </div>
<div><font size="2" color="#0000ff" face="Arial" lang="0"><b><br></b><br><b>--Toby
Katz<br>=============</b></font></div></font></div></blockquote><div><br>You misread my post.<br>I was suggsting taht the two rabbis who did NOT engag inlearning with each other fulfilled tghe prediction in the Talmud. I made NO SUCH SUGGESTION that this was a a CAUSE of the holocaust. There is NO such causal connexion suggestion, implied, insinuated or otherwise.<br>
<br>The only point was simple, as a RESULT [not as a cause] of the holocaust the prediction MADE BY THE TALMUD was fulfilled - uncannily while we were inteh mnidst of a discussion of Austritt came this VERY SAME DAF! How can we DENY teh Yad Hashem wWho so graciously has infomred us of the error of our ways<br>
<br>Umipnei hcataineu galinu NOT mipenti Tzadukim, Baissusim etc. Nor Is it fair to BLAME Reform et.c on the same basis. WE ARE the raders of the Talmud and it is up to US to introspectively subject OURSELVES to such scrutiny!<br>
<br>It is "Oh jsut so easy" to blame "Yennem" and be a 'sonei tochachos". That is NOT what mussar or eve nthe Talmud's clear lesson to us states. <br><br>Everyone wantsto praise Auustritt as jsut what HKBH wants. Well maybe the chacham who is ro;eh es hanolad may see a VERY different pricture. Certianly the Talmud suggests that if 2 rabbis cannot get alone IN THE SAME COMMUNITY all is not well.<br>
<br>And it IS A HISTORICAL FACT that many of these same rabbis lost their lives or their homes. Kind of chilling thought, eh? I fail to se how one CANNOT connect the dots when faced with such overwhelming Talmudic Aggadic statements that unfortunately are so obviously fulfilled.<br>
<br>But then again, 2 Jews 3 opinions. <br><br>FWIW, American Reform Judaism during the 19th century accepted the Talmud as the offical interpretation of the Tanach. [source Professor Grinstein OBM] which gives pause to how seriously DO we take these Talmudic statements to heart or are we going to imposse OUR OWN "ism's" upon them and ignore them at our own peril.<br>
<br>Or to state it another way, people SEEM to be saying we follow the Talmud WHEN it does not shift any of our preconceived notions or paradigms - Bbut as soon as it shakes our foundations we glibly look askance and come up with alternate spins. And indeed that might be the case when the reality maps out otehrwise, but whe nteh facts MATCH the text, how can we STILL be so resistent? <br>
</div><div><br> </div></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Kol Tuv / Best Regards,<br>RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com<br>see: <a href="http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/">http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/</a>
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