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<DIV>In a message dated 7/11/2008, rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com writes:</DIV>
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<DIV class=Ih2E3d><BR> below] The Red Sox come to Yankee
Stadium, does any Yankee Fan have<BR></DIV> any desire to
Ausrtitt the hated enemy by not letting him to play in
the<BR> very Holy of Holies that is Yankee Stadium!
<< [--RRW]</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>This is a particularly ill-chosen analogy since it does imply that O
and C are just two different home teams, eilu ve'elu. How about having
Yankee Stadium host a game between the Yankees and the Nuclear Weapons
Engineers of Iran? That would be a better analogy. [TK]</DIV>
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<DIV class=gmail_quote><BR>>>So R & C jews are as evil as Iranians
Islamo-Fasicists.<BR>that puts a different spin on the Holocaust. This implies
that mostly resh'a'im got killed and we should be celebrating not
mourning<BR> <BR>this is a good reason to show how Austritt
demonizes fellow Jews. It's a GREAT
illustration.<<</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=gmail_quote><BR>RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com<BR></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote> </DIV>
<DIV>>>>>>><BR>It's unfortunate that you don't read Areivim
because I have addressed this very point literally dozens of times. I
believe that I have addressed it on Avodah as well but will try again
anyway. Namely, there is a HUGE difference between the average C/R layman
and the R/C leadership. Almost all of the laity are tinokos shenishbu and
by now, that is also true of many of their rabbis -- young women who have grown
up in almost total ignorance of Judaism.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>The people of Iran are not the leaders of Iran. I am astonished that
this distinction is so hard for you to grasp.</DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I grew up in a household that was dedicated to kiruv and in which non-frum
Jews were regular guests. I've been married for 30 years to a kiruv
professional and throughout all those years, again, non-frum Jews have been
regular guests in our home. My father zt'l would never have walked
into a C or T temple, would never have shared a platform with "fellow rabbis"
and "colleagues" in any public forum and would never shake the hands of their
rabbis in public. But he was kind and hospitable to thousands of
non-frum Jews. How on earth do you suppose anyone can do kiruv if they
hate non-frum Jews and won't even talk to them?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You have to understand that it is WE who give C/R rabbis smicha,
by shaking hands with them and by acknowledging them as colleagues in public
fora -- such as Federation meetings, Yom Hashoa programs, Israel Day
parades and the like. In the eyes of their own congregants, the
legitimacy and authority of their own rabbis is always slightly suspect, but
when an Orthodox rabbi publicly shakes the hand of their rabbi and calls him
"colleague," by that act he ordains the C/R rabbi. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>It doesn't matter that you don't personally think so -- you don't think you
are granting the guy legitimacy in your own mind. I can tell you from
first-hand experience that it IS so -- that C and R laymen look to see what we O
do. It doesn't take a lot of O rabbis to break ranks. You only need
the occasional one here and there, and that is enough to extinguish in the eyes
of the C/R laity the clear knowledge that C and R are NOT-JUDAISM. One
rotten apple spoils the barrel. This confusion does not exist with regard
to "Jews for Jesus" or "Messianic Judaism" because there, the entire Orthodox
rabbinate speaks with one voice and no one breaks ranks.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You keep defining austritt with reference to 19th c Frankfurt, where bitter
battles were fought between Hirsch's kehilla and the gemeinde Orthodox.
And btw the latter would have had no shuls, no schools, no kosher food and
no mikva if not for Hirsch's establishment of austritt -- which gave the
Gemeinde leverage against the R reshaim they had previously lacked.
The Gemeinde attitude was "OK your tactics worked, they will agree to give
us what we want, we don't need austritt anymore, we won, let's
surrender." Great principle. As if the R couldn't stop up the mikva
again the minute the O laid down their weapons.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>But that fight is OVER. It's over.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If you don't like the very word "austritt" because it dredges up painful
memories for you -- fine. Come up with another word. We -- TIDE, RW
Jews -- believe in a policy of NON-RECOGNITION of C and R. Give that
policy another name, please, or I will just keep on calling it austritt.
You've been warned. </DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=0 face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"
PTSIZE="10"><STRONG></STRONG><BR><B>--Toby Katz<BR>=============<BR></FONT><FONT
lang=0 face=Arial color=#000000 size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"
PTSIZE="10"></B>President Reagan talked with the Soviets while pushing ahead
with the deployment of Cruise and Pershing missiles in Europe. He spoke softly —
after getting himself a bigger stick. --Mark Steyn</FONT><FONT lang=0
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"
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