<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 10:52 PM, <<a href="mailto:T613K@aol.com">T613K@aol.com</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Arial;"><font size="2" color="#000000" face="Arial"><div><div class="Ih2E3d"><br> below] The Red Sox
come to Yankee Stadium, does any Yankee Fan have<br></div> any desire to
Ausrtitt the hated enemy by not letting him to play in
the<br> very Holy of Holies that is Yankee Stadium!
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<div>TK: This is a particularly ill-chosen analogy since it does imply
that O and C are just two different home teams, eilu ve'elu. How about
having Yankee Stadium host a game between the Yankees and the Nuclear Weapons
Engineers of Iran? That would be a better analogy.</div>
<div></div></font></div></blockquote><div><br>So R & C jews are as evil as Iranians silamo-Fasicists.<br>that puts a different spin onth Holcoasut. This implies that mostly resh' <br>a'im got killed and we should be clebrating not mournin<br>
<br>thsi si agood reason to show how Austritt demonizes fellow Jews. It's a GREAT illustration.<br><br>OR as an Aushwitz survivor [a yeeke{] once told me we are our OWN worse enemies.[not his owrds but hsi words were worse] KINDA sad<br>
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<div>RRW: >> 4. Austritt has brought out such convoluted
situations such that two<div class="Ih2E3d"><br> noted Roshei Yeshiva who were
"buddies" in Poland [either roommates of<br></div> havrusas I forget
which] - and then lived about 0.5 a miles away from<div class="Ih2E3d"><br> each other
in the USA - but would not even talk to each other merely
because<br></div> of Austritt. Is Austritt a frontal assault on eilu
v'eilu? <<</div>
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<div>TK: You have a specialized historical knowledge of particular situations in
the past which may or may not have been justified but have nothing to do with
the proper policy to be followed today by religious Jews.</div>
<div> </div></font></div></blockquote><div><br>NO I am describing a mindse3t that ican and is being used for sin'as HInam between Rabanim. <br><br>See tomorrow's Daf [Sota 48b} fro what happens when 2 rabbonim live in the same town and refuse to share torah. My illustratoin above is based 100% on Austritt and I will nto name names but it is a real issue. <br>
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<div> RRW: >> 6. Didn't the deaths Talmidei R.
Akiva teach us a bit about the danger of<br> lack of mutual respect?
{at least between Austritt O's and non-Austritt<br>
O's]<<</div>
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<div>TK: This is no longer an issue. Re-fighting old historical
battles is of interest, perhaps, to scholars of history. The only
practical issue today is whether O Jews should treat C and R as in
some way legitimate "streams" of Judaism.</div></font></div></blockquote><div><br>No austritt is about shunning Orthodx jews who fail to practice Austritt. You keep on ignring this slaient fact and PRESUME that Austritt is ONLY about shunning C's and R's it's not. You are NOT fdescribing Austritt!<br>
<br>Austritt meant COMPLETELY shuunning Geminder Orthodox their kashrus their learning etc.<br><br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
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<div><br> RRW: >> 7. No Ta'anis Tzibbur can exist without
a Rasha. It seems that throwing<br> Resha'im out is a new idea.
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<div>TK: Again, you seem to be rehashing old historical battles. In
today's world no Orthodox synagogue will refuse to seat a non-observant Jew (and
most non-observant Jews are not, in any case, reshaim). </div></font></div></blockquote><div><br>That's not my point. Austritti s saying Resh'aim of ISrael are not really jews. Read your Iran statement above<br>
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<div>RRW: >>At the Seder we remonstrate with them, but
we<br> don't evict them. <<</div>
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<div>TK: We knock them on the teeth. Works for me.</div></font></div></blockquote><div><br>Only whnethey open thie mouth. but they are at the Seder.<br>You have steadfastly refused to allow any interaction because it confers legitimacy. But you contradict yourself if you DO interact with a Rash oat the Seder<br>
<br>BTW, Hakheh does NOT mean knock out but set on edge or sour<br>the poitn of the SEDER is ANTI-Austrit, it is saying debate the Rasha and prove him wrong not shun him!I<br><br><br> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
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<div>RRW: >> Is having the Rasha<br> at the Seder
legitimizing his life-style? we let him join in and if he<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
geahves we don't even start up with him, only when he brings up leitzanus
we<br> push back.<<</div></div>
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<div>TK: Again you are fighting old battles, from Frankfurt and maybe from
old Washington Heights, that I am not qualified to fight. </div></font></div></blockquote><div>the what you are sying is NOT Austritt but something else<br><br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Arial;"><font size="2" color="#000000" face="Arial"><div>All I know
is that in today's world the advocates of austritt welcome non-frum Jews to
their sedarim with open arms. </div></font></div></blockquote><div><br>Again it is not Austritt <br><br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Arial;"><font size="2" color="#000000" face="Arial"><div> But a joint seder led by an O and a C rabbi,
or an O seder in a C sanctuary, would be a horrible idea, against the
halacha and very harmful from a public policy point of view.</div></font></div></blockquote><div><br>RYBS was aggaisnt this. So is YU. YU co-oeprated onthe Chalaincy board and save RW yeshivos from sending Semciha studetns ot Korea etc. and the RW yeshivos won't even acknowleldge that nowaedays [they used to back in the late 1950's etc.]<br>
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<div>You have also alluded in the past to particular policy battles fought
between Breuer's and YU. While my sympathies are mainly with Breuer's, I
have not seen in practice, and certainly not in my father's life, a blanket
rejection of YU outside of that localized community tension.</div></font></div></blockquote><div><br>When I ws at Ner Isrel I haeard all kinds of negative coments re: YU and RYBS was never quoted as a gadol<br><br><br> </div>
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I note that
many products nowadays have both a KAJ and an OU on the label so I guess that
particular fight is over -- as there is a close association between YU and
the OU (many or most OU rabbanim having smicha from YU). Of course there
will continue to be areas of serious hashkafic
disagreements.<br><br></div></font>
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<div><font size="2" color="#0000ff" face="Arial" lang="0"><br><b>--Toby Katz<br>=============<br></b></font><font size="2" color="#000000" face="Arial" lang="0"></font></div></div></blockquote></div><br>To summarize:<br>
<ol><li>Meetings at secular events [NOT AT A SEDER] with non-O clergy does not confer legitimacy. This is an old battle and is obsolete. It only confers de facto reality no more than their being a shul presiident or to non-Jewish Clergy. Fro example at Soveit Jewry Rallies non_jewish clergy spoek and so did non-O Rabbis. Does not mean that we can ride to shul the next shabos.<br>
</li><li>Austritt is as much about shunning non-Austirrt Ortho's as shunning C's and R's. See the Rav Breuer bio re: Teh petirah of Rabbi Nobel<br></li><li>I wil BEH post more on this but quickly siad I poist here and now that Austritt has succeed in snuffin out TIDE everywhere it is seriously practiced <br>
</li></ol><br><br><br>Kol Tuv / Best Regards,<br>RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com<br>see: <a href="http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/">http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/</a>