<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 2:16 PM, Micha Berger <<a href="mailto:micha@aishdas.org">micha@aishdas.org</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>
To look at the cases already raised:<br>
Qiddushin and qinyan in general require shaveh kesef. I don't think the<br>
question of defining money applies to them directly. Except that...<br>
<br>
1- Hilkhos Shabbos requires knowing when masa umatan occured<br>
and<br>
2- Mi shepara distinguishes between payment with kesef the thing<br>
bought.<br>
<br>
We also raised:<br>
3- Mitzvos that are defined in sheqalim, such as pidyon haben and<br>
machatzis hasheqel.</blockquote><div><br>Corecton Kitzur SA re: pidyon 164:1. Further, Morechai Eliyahu Kitzur says se Chasam Sofer 289. KSA says bransilber is kosher, Banotes are not. IIRC he says shaveh kessaf IS OK which means shaveh kessa and banknotes are NOT one and the same<br>
<br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br>
<br>
On Wed, Jul 09, 2008 at 12:10:13AM -0400, Richard Wolpoe wrote:<br>
:<br>
Back to RRW's post, he asks:<br>
: When is shava kessef kessef?<br>
<br>
I would have asked the reverse: When is kessef, kessef?<br>
<br>
On Wed, 09 Jul 2008 13:16:42 (EDT) RZS responded to a post from RRW:<br>
>> Fiat money, like life insruance is an astraction.<br>
<br>
> No more than silver-as-money was an abstraction in Chazal's time and<br>
> through most of history.</blockquote><div><br><br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br>
<br>
It wasn't so much an abstraction as a standardization. For small business,<br>
you trusted the coinage and didn't bother weighing each one.<br>
<br>
How far can you drift from kesef in the sense of silver and still be<br>
talking about what chazal were talking about? I don't know if Chazal<br>
ever dealt with the homonimity of kesef, that it means both silver and<br>
money. The split between the two meanings came later.</blockquote><div><br>Yes <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br>
<br>
At the time Chazal wrote about mi shepara, coinage had its inherent<br>
value. A sheqel was a sheqel's weight of silver. If it wasn't in coin<br>
form, it had the same value. If a coin were shaved, it was worth less.</blockquote><div><br>The Kolbon required for Shekalim proves that for that usage a coin HAD to have an exact weight and that fiat was insufficient...<br>
<br>You are missing a period in history. BEFORE governments starting putting out worthless money, individual BANKS put out ppaer moeny called banknotes [see KSA above for an illustration] Banknotes were kinda like pre-payed traveler Checques.<br>
<br>It was upon THIS existing structure that paper fiat money evolved. But at least in theory ther was metal behind it. When I was a kid, every dollar bill was a silver certificate, valid for $1.00 worth of silver. Until 1935 alL US currency was worth something in Gold.<br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br>
<br>
<br>
Then they introduced money that is more like stock -- proof of ownership<br>
of something of value. But by the later days of the gold backed dollar,<br>
the US didn't actually provide a means of getting to Fort Knox and<br>
putting in a claim for the gold. So even at that point, it wasn't too<br>
different than today's fiat money.</blockquote><div><br>What they really did was took away real phsycial money [gold alone or gald & Silver - see any artcile on Willam Jennings Brayn for the machlokes here] and repalced it with banknotes. But they are not banknotes from the BAnk fo the United States, taht dies with Andrew Jackson. They are litearlly FEDERAL RESERVE NOTES which are banknotes from a quasi public Quasi private bank ssstem. It is not qite aanalogous to the "bank of Canada" which is a creature of the Canadian Goverrnemt. The Federal Reserve is much more detached from te hactauly government of the US. <br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br>
<br>
I do not understand the discussion of fiat money as shetar chov.</blockquote><div><br>Because fiat money evolved out of banknotes. Banknotes are not realyl shtarie Chov they are more like Amex Traveler Checques but they are not Governmetn money either<br>
<br><br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br>
<br>
I would consider that more abstract than the money actually be made<br>
of silver of that value, but that's neither here nor there; a possible<br>
debate over the meanings of the word "abstract".</blockquote><div><br>Sotkc in a croporation is an abstraction. the point of options is that it is an abstraction OF an abstraction. Few people today relly have physical stock certificates, but they were common at one time <br>
</div><div><br>My poitn is that if you have 2nd thoughts about the reality of mechiras Hametz than fiat money is more-or-less simlarly flawed.<br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>
<br>
To summarize:<br>
<br>
1- Qinyan doesn't care whether or not you're using money, so for things<br>
like hilkhos Shabbos, the question isn't whether scrip is money, but<br>
whether one can make a qinyan before Shabbos without knowing until<br>
Shabbos what he's making the qinyan on....<br></blockquote><div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br>
<br>
:-)BBii!<br>
-Micha<br>
<br></blockquote> </div><div><br>Again if a silver coin is worth $5.00 it is mamash $5.00<br>but an IOU for $5.00 is only a RAYA that there is a chov [shtarei chov] so fiat money seems to be a gbray area in the middle. I think this trhead has proved that fiat money is NOT like silver mamash and is not quite a private promissory note either.<br>
<br>With a $5.00 silver coing you break it in half, and you have $2.50 of silver. With a Federal Reerve note, if you can show that half of the bill was damaged you will probably STILL get the full $5.00 forthe remaining half because there is nothing intrinsic in the paper. [You will not get back the full $5.00 in the case that the other half is still around for obvious reasons.]<br>
</div></div><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Kol Tuv / Best Regards,<br>RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com<br>see: <a href="http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/">http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/</a>