<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 2:03 PM, Micha Berger <<a href="mailto:micha@aishdas.org">micha@aishdas.org</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
On Fri, Jul 04, 2008 at 12:07:46AM -0400, Richard Wolpoe wrote:<br>
:> Give me a rigorous definition of "new enough" that allows for ther Rambam<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d">:> and not the Gra.<br>
<br>
: I already did!. Shulchan Aruch Choshen Mishpat 25 wherein the mechabeir<br>
</div>: insisted that to'eh bidvar mishneh included posqim...<br>
<br>
But that does NOT exclude the Gra. The Gra, each and every time he rules<br>
against minhag, has a reason to say that the minhag was based on a ta'us<br>
bidevar mishnah. He didn't overturn accepted pesaq just because he had a<br>
batter sevara, it was only when he felt that the accepted pesaq was wrong.</blockquote><div><br>The GRA did not jsut rule against minhag he ruled against widely accepted P'sak. This is tantamount to What R. Eliezer Hagaodl did with his rayos. I fail to see any hilluk in how the GRA rejected the consensus of Posqim and Rabbi Eliezer rejecting the consensus of his peers. <br>
<br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br>
<br>
E.g.<br>
- Making baqashos after benching (the "harachaman"s) on Shabbos</blockquote><div>good point but this is NOT a psaq<br><br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>
- Having MORE portions instead of fewer for the sake of lechem oni (an<br>
oxymoron, no? particularly since mishneh lechem on YT is itself iffy)</blockquote><div><br>Not when it fallssis Friday night See Behag<br><br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>
- Adding a proof from Zecharia at the end of a Aleinu, attributed to<br>
Yehoshua bin Nun (implies a rejection of that mesorah)</blockquote><div>I dunno this one<br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>
<br>
...<br>
: Also see Heramann Stracks' quote that the "MAIN TASK" for posqim today is to<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d">: read the codes and trace them back to the Talmud. IOW, the Talmud isnow<br>
: jsut background for the p'saq, not the foreground. I posit this morphed<br>
: from the early Rishonim to the end of Rishonim and I can actually quote you<br>
: sources to this effect.<br>
<br>
</div>One could attribute this to today's poseiq not being a throwback. Thus,<br>
he has neither lesser wisdom nor precedent to confine him.<br>
</blockquote><div><br>So who syas WHO is a throwback. I s RAmbam a Trhowaback? Tosafos? Tosafos essentially jsut did waht the Talmud did, except in France. They dialectically threw texts together ina eiseive and urminhu style. Soes folowing Amoraic Style give Tosafos Amoraic power? some say yes! That is how Tsoafos can be mevateil mayyim acharonim and the issur of clapping on Shabbos <br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br>
:> The Gra argued that he only changed pesaqim that were against halakhah<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d">:> (as he understood it) in favor of those that are not.</div></blockquote><div><br><br><br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
<br>
: Guess what? so does every body else. I argue that bachurim not wearing a<br>
: Tallis Gadol is against p'saq, and the Darchei Moshe, </div></blockquote><div><br>Do me a favor and see both the DArchei Moshe and the Mishna Brura. Despite the mechabeir it is liekly that the brahc on a Talis TKatan is is a bracha levatllah - hence the MB's position to waith untnil wearing a Tallis Gadol. And your arguemtn that thsi is optional flies in the face of gazilloins of Posqim> if Tallis siindceed optional then put on TEfilin first and froget about tadir veshei'no tadier etc.<br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
</div>If it were assur to daven without a tallis gadol, then it would fit<br>
the Gra's model to overturn Ashkenazi norm. It's not against halakhah<br>
because tallis is a reshus.</blockquote><div><br>As Above:<br> if Tallis siindceed optional then put on TEfilin first and froget about tadir veshei'no tader etc.<br>
<br><br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> Same argument we had WRT tefillin on ch"m.<br>
There is no actual issur against missing a day of tefillin. </blockquote><div><br>Just a bittul mitzvas Aseh! Please bring me a source for this one! I would like to see one poseik - ANY poseik say that this is no big deal.<br>
<br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Both are<br>
"merely" mechzei kemeshaqeir.</blockquote><div><br>It's a big deal that Ashekanzim don't wear tefilin on Tisha B'av except that we do for Mincahh. Look at all the posqim who obejct to that model<br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br>
<br>
:> and probably a product of the collapse of the ghetto's culture<br>
:> during his times.<br>
<br>
: Nah. Gra dies 1797, Napoleon invades Russian Emptire in 1812 The ghettoes<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d">: only BEGAN collapsing 15 years after Gra's passing.<br>
<br>
: Gra knew his pesakkim were private. He never even tried to popularize<br>
: them. Those who reached back to the GRA to create a new Halachic norm<br>
: really wer quite radical to abandon Minhag Avos.<br>
<br>
</div>These two paragraphs largely cancel<br></blockquote><div><br>How? <br><br>#1 GRA stil had a ghetto<br>#2 Gra never pushed his minhaggim or psaqim<br><br>Why didn't Chayei Adam follow the Gra in his sefer? <br>
<br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">.<br>
That's not the question. The question is whether what the Gra said still<br>
within the eilu va'eilu of halakhah.</blockquote><div><br>Wlle whose eilu v'eilu do you accept?<br>Rabbi Backman's hafka'as Qiddushin? Arguably not as radical as you would think.<br>How about mechira for Shemitta. We aruable are not 100% sure what year shemitta is anyway, making every year kind of like not knowing what day Sahbbos is either.<br>
<br>But you are missing my entire point. I am not saying the Gra created yesih mei'ayin I AM saying he opened a can of worms /p[androa's box/ slipery slope etc. ready-made for future abuse against the system.<br>
<br>Even if every arguemnt is 100% trued ,he destabilized it.<br><br>I can prove how dangerous this is because some people on this list find ANY objection of mine to the status quo of their chrished beliefs and prctices as really problematic. I see the reaction I get for shwoing with rayos bruaros that their dearly held shittos are really flimsy, <br>
<br>But I am a nobody. <br><br>But the GRA is a somebody. and by showing that nto dozens but operhaps hundreds of minhaggim, psesaqqim and mietmietcs are questionable if not wrong is even MORE disturbing.<br><br>So for all of you readers on this list that find I am rocking the boa far too mcuh, mjultiply that by about a factor of 199 to 1,000 and you will get my point. The Gra's long list of dissents cuouples wwith HIS gravitas is bound to make the system far less stable than any of my kveches on Avodah.<br>
<br>If YOu are OK with radical changes so long as yo ucan bring proofs, then you should be OK wiht all of my stuff, too. If not, then you are not being hoestly introspective, or you are jsut used to the GRA for the last 200 years but are unble to put yourself back into his own day and see what I mean. <br>
<br>Maybe in 200 years from now, my proposals wil seem like old hat too! <br>- <br></div></div>Kol Tuv / Best Regards,<br>RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com<br>see: <a href="http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/">http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/</a>