<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 5:43 PM, Rich, Joel <<a href="mailto:JRich@sibson.com">JRich@sibson.com</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
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<div><span> But that still begs
the question, consensus based on what? If in the end it's lev shel torah you
have the same consistency issue you mentioned earlier as well as the classic who
gets a vote issue. Is it almost a gzeirat hakatuv that all votes on the
sanhedrin were equal or is that the model and if so then how do we now
determine to 70/1????</span></div><div class="Ih2E3d">
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<div><span><font size="2" color="#0000ff" face="Arial">KT<br>Joel Rich</font></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br>Of course you are correct. But let's try this on for size.<br>RYBS once showed that eino ra'uy l'achilas kelev is not a LAB experiment [with a black lab or a chocolate lab] but it is the estiamte of what the POSEIK sees as eino Ra'uy.<br>
<br>Thus the Beis yosef says : hey the minhg is 3 matzos. Schoen!<br>Adn the kaf hachayyim points out that the Shleah says thsi is the ONLY way to be yotzei lechol hadei'os then he brings the GRA who says the Rosh is wrong becuase the Talmud is cearly agaisnt him.<br>
<br>Finally the Kaf hachayyim says: But ALL the ACHARONIM say 3. IOW notwithstanding the GRA, the consensus [ overwhelmingly btw] is 3. Period<br><br>Niether the BY nor the KhCH try to say the halacha is like the most philogically correct red of the Talmud. It is by the consensus of posqim AS THEY PERCEIVE IT.<br>
<br>I have a real problem with the Sha'r Hatziyyum on the matter of betziztzi [sheva] bvs. BAtzitzis] with a patach. why? Because R> IM Hakohein says: "Rov Acharonim" Well go research THAT source. W/o a bar-Ilan CD it could tke a lifetime! But aside from my frustration that the Sha'ar hatziyyn left out the specifics, he is TELLING us his methodolgy, follow the Rov Posqim! in THIS case, I would folow rov [frum] ba'alei dikduk - like Heidenheim, Ya'avetz, etc. but that is a quibble.<br>
<br>I willconcede that Halcha is NOT an exact science, but that is imho NTO an excuse for TOTAL subjectivity. There must be a way to have object criteria. Why?<br><ol><li>We ahve a concept of To'eh bidvar Hamishah</li>
<li>We have the concept of an errant Sanhedrin<br></li></ol>If Halahcha wer 100% or even 90+% SUBJECTIVE, then we would have no rules to hold anyone responsible. As for scosmic irony, the mroe niskatnu hadoros, the more likely we accept posqim w/o any quibbling! in the old Days when the Giants walked the land, they got slammed! Ever Read the Bedek Habbayis on the Toras Habbayis? <br>
<br></div><div>Of course, when you object to decision, you have to play by the rules. you have to cite sources.I can show MANY sources that have a patach under Batzitzis isntead of the Sheva. But to tell the truth, Sevara seems to be with the Mishna Brura because few Brachos have a hei hayediah [e.g. al netilass LULAV not HALLULAV]. My problem with this one case isthat I would have chosen to consult the better edited siddurim instead of the posqim.<br>
<br>I like the way Beis Yosef does it. And Darchei Moshe ho'oruch, too. They both urvey as many posqim as they can in their library and come down to a bottom line. <br></div></div><br>The Aruch hashulchan does this a bit, but not quite as thoroughly as the 2 above. The kaf Hachayyim is very good at modeling the BY.<br>
<br>And a colleague of mine once suggested a Beis Din of MB AhS and KhCh. I would strongly recommend that Orach Hayyim issues be dealt with this way, it makes a lot of sense. If you need to add a vfew a bit more, I would add Kitzur, Chayei Adam ,SA harav and maybe alieyah Rabbah to the mix. They all go back a little bit earlier, but they also used consensus quite a bit to arvie at THEIR decisions. <br>
<br>=============================================================<br>totally tangential when I preapred to teach issur v'heter his year I took each subject at a time and I read 100% Tur, then 100% SA/Rema, then 100% Levush. Then I went onto thenext subject. The usage of 3 simlar overlapping poitns of view but enitrely differing styles, was really helpful in solidfyin and cllarifying the issues w/o having to go to the Beis Yosef day one.<br>
<br>If I had more time I would have added chochcmas Adam [the new edition is marvelous!] and the Aruch hashulchan [who is very wordy]<br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Kol Tuv / Best Regards,<br>RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com<br>see: <a href="http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/">http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/</a>