<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 10:16 AM, Micha Berger <<a href="mailto:micha@aishdas.org">micha@aishdas.org</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 12:47:18AM -0400, Richard Wolpoe wrote:<br>
: What is interesting is that Yekkes by and large learn little mussar at all.<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d">: They just practice a very polite and proper way of life. I wonder if 1,000<br>
: mussar books are worth a few ounces of actual practice ingrained into a<br>
: community.<br>
<br>
</div>In Madreigas haAdam (first essay), the Alter of Novhardok explains the<br>
need for mussar by starting with Avraham avinu and breaking down history<br>
into eras. In the era he calls the era of the yeshiva, from chazal until<br>
the haskalah, there was a symbiotic relationship between yeshiva and<br>
ir. They shared one culture and one outlook.<br>
<br>
With the haskalah a rift opened. The street went out of sync with the<br>
yeshiva. What was until then transmitted culturally was no longer being<br>
passed down.<br>
<br>
RYS had to come up with a formal methodology for teaching that which<br>
until then people were learning by osmosis. That methodolgy to create<br>
the person our environment should have made us is Mussar.<br>
<br>
I think therefore the Alter of Novhardok would answer RRW with a<br>
resounding "definitely". But cultures dissolve, and then all you're left<br>
with is books and techniques to try to mold who you are.<br>
<br>
: After leaving a very pollite/coureeous society in West Hartford to go to<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d">: various Yeshivos, the first [and one of the only] community that gave me the<br>
: feel of "home" was the Washington Heights community in which people<br>
: naturally had a sense of etiquette.<br>
<br>
</div>Not that I'm ch"v accusing Breuer's of having one but not the other, but<br>
in principle "etiquette" and ehrlachkeit are different things. E.g. the<br>
Victorian British were renown for their abilities at politely stabbing<br>
each other in the back.<br>
<br>
*Yaft* E-lokim leyefes. It's an aesthetic of interpersonal relations, not<br>
a substance. It's not for nothing that "polite" comes from the past<br>
participal of the Latin meaning "to polish". Surface.<br>
<br>
Tir'u baTov!<br>
-Micha<br>
<br>
--</blockquote></div><br>They have ACCUSED --smile- RSRH as being a walking mussar sefer. My point is that musarr seforim work better when they walk. I attend ner israel [named after RYS hi9mself BTW] I found Mussar shmuessen a mixed bag at best. sometimes it engendered leitznus - just like praise can engender avak lashon hara.<br>
<br>OTOH, i have found that MANY talmiddim from certain yeshivos do have really good Middos. Breuer's is one and "Chofetz Chaim" is another. <br><br>I did not mean to attack Mussar, I meant to question the efficacy of READING or LEARNING mussar from a sefer. It works MUCH better when I society practices it.<br>
<br>You can learn techniques from a Sefer, how to execute something better, but I have rarely seen Mussar "book" learning do that much good. [a reall farbrente ba'al teshuva might be a valid exception]<br><br>
OF course a person who is MOTIVATED to change can get hizzuk from a good Musar Sefer. <br><br>BTW, I am looking to start a list of Seforim that re-inforce Ahavas Yisroel. I have found 2 really good ones so far<br><br><ol>
<li>Tanna devei Eliyahu</li><li>Sh'miras Halashon <br></li></ol>If someone wants to break off a thread on Sifrei Ahavas Ysiroel I would be pleased.<br><br><br><br>RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com<br>see: <a href="http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/">http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/</a>