<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 2:34 PM, <<a href="mailto:ssvarc@yeshivanet.com">ssvarc@yeshivanet.com</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 01:39:57AM +1000, SBA wrote:<br>
: Does anyone deny that RSRH and SIL had strong kanoi and anti-zionist :<br>
hashkafas? Or is that one part of the TIDE world that we want to forget :<br>
about?<br>
<br>
R' Micha, in reaction, asked:<br>
A question for Avodah -- were Austritt and TiDE inextractably linked as<br>
one overall hashkafah? Or can one agree with RSRH on TiDE but relegate<br>
Austritt to a time when R was in rapid growth and a challenge to O?<br>
<br>
My answer:<br>
To me it is clear, after reading R' Elias ;) and Collected Writings, that<br>
they are inextricably linked. It is a clear outgrowth of the need for the<br>
Torah to reign supreme in all areas, including communal as well.<br>
<br>
However, the question of his reaction to Israel is more complicated, and I<br>
won't venture a guess as to where he would of ended up. Someplace on the<br>
spectrum from Brisk (total Austritt) to Agudah (ideological Austritt but<br>
pragamatic cooperation), where exactly I don't know.<br>
<br>
KT,<br>
MSS<br>
<br>
</blockquote><div><br>I have not read Rav Elias. It seesm to bme very obvious.<br>Yet Austritt was inextricably linked to TIDE in Germany<br>As far as I am concerned, in the USA and in the Post-holocaust world there is not a shred of evidence that it is necesary or even desirable for TIDE to work.<br>
<br>The USA is not a centralized society as was Germany under th Kaiser. I won't go into all of this but it is obvious that communities wer acreatuers of teh Government and indepndence was paramaount<br><br>This was never true of the USA. <br>
<br>The basic assumption of Austritters of both TIDE and other RWO communities is really based upon a flawed premise.<br><br>Illustration. If I am a military chaplain in the US aremd forces I recognize chaplains of other demonations as legitimate pastors, too. That in NO WAY means I recognize their underlying religion or faith as a "valid "altenrative".<br>
<br>R. Dr. Norman Lamm was raked over in the Jewish Observer on this one decades ago. But it was a fasle straw man. Working with leaderrs of non-Halchic ongregations in NO WAY confers upo0n them any kind of religous validity, it is only the defacto recogntion of communal leadership. As Lamm retorted "yes like Jewish Boy Scout Troops" <br>
or something simliar.<br><br>I grew up in W. Hartford, CT. All kinds of clergy got together for all kinds of reasons. I never ONCE thgouth [even when a young kid!] that any Modern Ortho YU type rabbi felt that they recognized C or R rabbis as legitmate because they discussed some common communal need. This is IMHO a canard based upon "guilt by association"<br>
<br>Believe me, the rabbi where/when I grew up was pretty close to the left of MO, but he at least once stated publicly that R rabbis gave him less of a hassle than C rabbis. There was NO QUESTION that even w/o Austritt, no theological recognition was forthcoming. <br>
<br>In the bio of Rabi Breuer, it mentions that at the death of Rabbi Nobel's [rav of Gemeinder O rtho's in Frankfort] passing was ignored by the Austritt Breuers. Nevertheless, it is R. Nobel's original landesgebet that is included in the Roedelheim Siddur following WWI.<br>
<br>I also need not regale y'a;; that certain G'dolim [{e.g. R. D. Lifschutz ZTL] was both Agudist and YU-Mizrachi at the same time. And RYBS shared the Dais with R. A . Kotler at Hinuch Atmzai dinners etc. Or that R. Shraga Feivel Mendelowitz hand-picked Dr. Joe Kamenetsky as his successor etc. So certain elements of Austritt have been ignroed in the Greater Agudist Ortho Community at large. <br>
<br>-- <br></div></div>Kol Tuv / Best Regards,<br>RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com<br>see: <a href="http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/">http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/</a>