<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 7:25 AM, Eli Turkel <<a href="mailto:eliturkel@gmail.com">eliturkel@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
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2. There is a principle that Amoraim don't disagree with Tanaim.<br>
However, many feel that they felt free to reinterpret Taanaitic sources<br>
in ways that were not the original intention in order to justify some<br>
amoraic opinion or some accepted practice. Is this on purpose<br>
or darkha shel Torah?<br>
<br><br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
--<br>
Eli Turkel<br>
_____________</font></blockquote></div><br clear="all"><blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;" class="gmail_quote">
2. There is a principle that Amoraim don't disagree with Tanaim.</blockquote><div>Better stated [imho] ther is a principle that Amoraim cannot OVERRULE tannaim<br>But they can LIMIT the scope of any statement.<br><br>
Wolpoe's Gneral Klal about re-interpeting TEXT from its peshat<br><br>What drives a re-interpretation from the plain meaning of a text?<br><ol><li>Logic/Svra -<br>EG it's not mistaber to say one is bodeik hametz l'or haneir on the 14h of nissan when it is a Friday night <br>
</li><li>Masorah:<br>EG it is not logical nor traditonal to see RISHON as in ach bayyom harishon to allow Hametz until the 15th so Rishon MSUT be the 14th [mipi hashmuah]</li><li>Other Texts<br>Rashi probably claims that brothers sold Yosef to Egypt in Vayesehv because in Mikketz that is exactly what he accuses them of doing. Tosafos uses this technique the most to later th simle read, but Rashi does it more subtly.<br>
</li><li>Textual nuance<br>Q: Where does Rashi [and the underlying Midrash} KNOW that Kayyin's gift was inferior? the Text only claism that Kayyin gave some fruit of the land while Hevel gave fatted sheep?<br>A: textual sensitivity. When the Torah points out that Hevel's was from the best it implies [or we infer] tha Kayyin gave from inferior stuff. {Meforshim on Rashi say this]<br>
</li></ol>So when an Amora twists a Tanna's statemett it falls under 1 of the 4.<br><br>I am about to teach hullin ch. 8 Rabbi Yochana's meimra [v'lo klum between meat and milk] is "twisted" by the Talmud to conform with Rav Hisda's meimra of NOT eating dairy after meat.<br>
<br>I asked RDW Halivni:<br>Q: Since when does R. Yochanan HAVE To agre with Rav Hisda [who came later] <br>A: Aderabba, the Gamara is chagning Rabbi Yochanan because they did not want a kashah on Rav Hisda!<br><br>Wolpoe's spin: In EY Rabbi Yochana probably said what he said, BUT in Bavel Rav Hisda's meimra was probably normative and the Talmud could not tolerate that. So it reinterpreted Rabbi Yochanan either by virtue of 1 of 2 sources:<br>
<ol><li>Meimra of Rav Hisda itself<br>or</li><li>Local MINHAG [probably due to the acceptance Rav Hisda as above]</li></ol>When learning Gmara, se how often a simple Mishna is qualified by a Meimra. Often these are NOT controversial but at times they really twist the simple peshat<br>
<br>The Bavli assumes that the case of giving Ma'aser before Truma is in reality a somewhat convoluted read to the Mishna. I don't know which reason this is. But it is a fact that Amor'aim can reconfigure a Mishna in away that the original intent is unlikley being honored.<br>
<br>Tosafos does the same to the Talmud itself. Usually they have another source, albeit it even a Pesikta or a Behag<br></div><br>At no time do I believe in my heart that the Bavli is giving the exclusive peshat when it changes things, But I do accept its authority in a legal sense. After all we do not pasken like a plain Mishnah when the Talmud has modified it - no matter how egregiously to the original intent - but I do find it hard to "check my mind at the door!" And frankly, since SVARA is so crucial to Talmud therefore one cannot suspend the analytical sense.<br>
<br>The Gmara in Makkos seems to suggest this re: 39 vs. 40 makkos.<br><br>-- <br>Kol Tuv / Best Regards,<br>RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com<br>see: <a href="http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/">http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/</a>