<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 3:00 PM, Micha Berger <<a href="mailto:micha@aishdas.org">micha@aishdas.org</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 06:40:00PM -0400, Richard Wolpoe wrote:<br>
: And I confess there was a straw man aspect. I was most cetainly attacking<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d">: the idea that O's can over-turn Halachah jsut becauase they do it but if C's<br>
: do something similar it must be wrong...<br>
<br>
</div>That's like citing C citing pruzbul as a source. It's not just a "can<br>
over-turn Halachah" it's the when and why.<br>
<br>
<br>
But I would have thought we would actually be on the same side on the<br>
issue of dancing on Shabbos.<br>
<br>
The aggadists would find a tzad heter for dancing, since it aids in the<br>
feeling of Shabbos.<br>
<br>
Since mimetically most Jews do dance, you as a minhag avos supporter<br>
Should have equal reason to rely on the da'as yachidim of Tosafos or the<br>
implication of the Y-mi.<br>
<br>
Overturning norm to be loyal to the books was something you decried<br>
earlier in this thread. What's the difference here?<br>
<br>
Tir'u baTov!<br>
-Micha<br>
<br>
--<br>
Micha Berger </blockquote></div><br><br>Funny you should ask because I was going to post a Hilluk on this!<br><br>First of all I ma not a pure Mimeticist. <br>Summary:<br><div style="margin-left: 40px;">AISI Mimetics trumps Bavli only if it is evidence of a pre-existing paralllel source from more-or-less the same era. [E.G. Rav Amram Gaon can kinda trump Bavli on hefsek for piyyutim. Why requires a book]<br>
</div>
<br>Disclaimer, merely walking around the bima is problem not DANCING that is prohibited on Shabbos and YT<br><br><br><br>TWO cases and TWO opposite positions by RRW:<br><br>1. Bassar Behalav - 6 hours.<br><div style="margin-left: 40px;">
Yekke Mimetics makes sense? Why Tosafos says 0-1 hours is OK. so does Rema at the outset. Plus the Talmujd is silent,. the FIRST source for 6 hours is [drum roll plz] RAMBAM! Rif only says fro mmorning meal to evening meal. In a 3-day a meal society even RIF might have endorsed the Yekke 3-hour rule [and that is my version of its source] Mimeitcs triumps over extrapolation of Bavli by Rishonim.<br>
<br>Tangentialy, it would seem from teh quote of Rabbi Yochanan inthe Bavli that his origainl position before emended by the Bavli to confrom with Rav isda was taht NO WIATING AT ALL was required. This supposrts the idea taht if in EY they were NTO choseish for Rav Hsda, then they probably held that no waiting was required and this explains RT and Tosafos in a way that has NOTHING to do with Mar Ukva at all.<br>
<br></div>2. Dancing on Shabbos: [Disclaeimer: I do not like to dance but this also includes clapping and banging]<br><ol><li>It's a MISHNA not a Bavli so the EY vs. Bavel dynamic essentialy cannot be involved [except perhaps that you feel Yerushalmi has a different read of the nature of the gzeira]</li>
<li>The Bavli plays no games with this Mishna, <br></li><li>Nor does the SA who codifies it virtually verbatim<br></li><li>This one Tosafos is NOT endorsed by Rema AISI [as opposed to waiting after meat above] his FIRST answer is MUTAV [compare his defense re: Kapparos] Nor RMF for that matter<br>
</li><li>The mimeitcs aisi is not a conintous TRADITION dating backto Tosafos, but a rejected Shita revived and defended post facto <br></li></ol>At any rate, my essentail shita on non-textual minhaggim is that they are non-textal in the Talmudic era but were preserved orally in parallel. If you were to show me the FIRST example of a Minhag was the Taz [e.g. temimos] then yekkes do NOT subscribe. The whole point of preserving Minhaggim is that they pre-dated the ratifcation of a given text [e.g. the Bavli]. And had Rema ratified this minhag of dancing, then I Might have flipped my position.<br>
<br>I once posted on this list that Teimanim ALWAYS follow Rambam. Someone pointed me to a website that gave 40 exceptions of Teimani TSBP that PRE-DATED the Rambam. <br><br>In a real sense the following is my shita<br>SA came to make final rules. Rema emended SA with PRE-EXISITNG Ashkenaz practice<br>
<br>Back up one step<br>Rambam codified rules - Hagahos maimoniyos partialyl documented how Ashk,. differed ALREADY.<br><br>Back up one more step<br><br>Bavli imposes Halacha, but SOME of that is ONLY Minhag Bavle [think Aveilus! or perhaps hasiba] Tosafos comes to document pre-existing Minhg Ashk. that traces back to other customs. I value this asepct of Tosafos as a preserver of tradition fmor than his pilpulism<br>
<br>But this is a LOT harder to do against a Mishna from EY than a Bavli in my world-view. So aisi Tsofos over-stepped his boudns. Rema seems to agree and so does RMF Orach Chaim Pt. 2 #100 Ayein Sham for a really radical POV On the entire matter.<br>
<br>Also, at one time all the ancient mimetics were oral/mimeitc. By NOW we have dozens of Seforim preserving the ancient Ashekanzic practices. It dos not seem that much slipped through the cracks. The point is that I value Yosef Ometz as a valid alternate source on a par with an era earlier but even I have limits> IOW my defense of Mimetics is more about how can Ashekanz have piyyutim that step on the hefsek rules.. <br>
<br>Now new Minhaggim that are not a problem are OK wwith me. I certainly do NOT endorse Ashk. NOT wearing Tefilin on ChhM against the Rema. This to me is shinuy not hiddush! <br><br>So Catholic Israel has its limits. But of course the fact that people endorse the GRA re: Tefilin but still use 3 matzos at the Seer kinda baffles me anyway. It's a kind a of Catholic Israel to eclectically pick poseik X in 1 case and poseik Y in another as opposed to having a shita..<br clear="all">
<br><font size="4">[if you're stil lreading this then:]</font><br> I should note that aiui the Yerushalmi implies that BOTH feet leave
th ground. I know one wild guy at the Friday Night Carlebac who does
just that [but it might be bein hashemashos] I know the ba'al Habeyis is ocncerned becasue his wife is a piano
techer and this guy [unlike Tosafos] is UNTUNING the piano every Friday
night by jumping up and down. So for hilchosShabbos he is mekalkel and
is probably pattur. But for Chosehn Mishpat he probably owes the owner
a tuning every week!<br><br><br><br>-- <br>Kol Tuv / Best Regards,<br>RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com<br>see: <a href="http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/">http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/</a>