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<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2>From: Micha Berger <A
href="mailto:micha@aishdas.org">micha@aishdas.org</A><BR><BR>RMB:
>>Bottom line is that RSRH was against Jews trying to redeem
themselves<BR>politically or try to bring the ge'ulah through hishtadlus.
...<BR>Someone might take the new realia that emerged after his petirah
and<BR>reach the conclusion that RSRH wouldn't have been anti-Zionist
(perhaps<BR>only non-Z). But I personally don't see how to construct such a
thing.<<</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2>TK: Hirsch followed the majority of gedolim and poskim in all
matters and would certainly have been an Agudist or something similar.
Non-Zionist. As for political action, in the first 19 centuries after the
churban it was almost universally accepted and expected that Hashem would send
Moshiach, not that we would do it ourselves. Hirsch was a Torah Jew, not a
navi and certainly not a secular visionary. He thought what everyone
in the Torah world thought -- that Hashem would send
Moshiach. At the same time, in Germany Hirsch was very much
involved in the 19th century political move toward greater liberalization of the
laws, more civil rights for Jews and so on. He even served for a
time in the Parliament or some such body in one German state.
<DIV><BR><BR>Old TK: :
Overall, it seems to me ...<BR>:
that the Hashgacha has a plan for the <BR>: Jewish people that
includes both a strong Torah-only community in Eretz <BR>: Yisrael AND a
Torah-plus-work community in chutz la'aretz....<BR><BR>RMB: >>TIDE
isn't Torah uParnasah. That's yet another hashkafah.<BR><BR>But why are you
limiting Torah-only to EY, and Torah-applied to chul?<<</DIV>
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<DIV>TK: You are correct that working for a living isn't by itself TIDE.
Most chassidim work. But it so happens that the majority of the black hat,
RWO (right wing Orthodox) olam in America is functionally, even if not
consciously, TIDE -- because TIDE is the only way a large community can possibly
exist in this day and age. Most RWO go to college, even if just BTL plus
grad school. Virtually all go to high school and are literate in a secular
language and have had exposure to secular literature (even if only enough to
pass the NY State English Regents exam to get a high school diploma). We
read and write in English, not Yiddish. We have a vast efflorescence of
Torah writing in English, books and magazines. We learn Torah in
English. We interact with the non-Jewish world not only on the level of
simple commerce but on an intellectual level as well -- we are intellectually
engaged in "da ma shetashiv." I could go on and on but my point is the same
point I've made before -- TIDE is the only way to go in a modern
democracy, the only way that Torah survival is possible. Any older ideal
of "Torah only" can only succeed nowadays in a small, enclosed,
self-selected community that enjoys the luxury of being embedded in a
larger TIDE community. BTW the Torah-only community (including some of my
own sibs) do not see themselves as a subset of a larger TIDE community, but that
is how I see them, regardless of how they see themselves.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>As for your question, "Why are you limiting Torah-only to EY?" the answer
is, it seems that that is what the Hashgacha desires. If it were up
to me I'd have a TIDE community in E'Y too, with a small group--our modern
Shevet Levi--learning Torah full time, supported willingly and happily by the
rest. However, it is not up to me. Hashgacha has so worked
things out that people who want to learn gravitate towards E'Y while people who
want to obtain a higher secular education and who want to work gravitate towards
chu'l. I'm using the word "people" very loosely here, mainly thinking of
RWO.<BR><BR>...<BR>Old TK: A sign of the essential yiras Shamayim of
Yekkes in general and Hirschians <BR>: in particular is that when they do
(unfortunately) deviate from TIDE <BR>: philosophical purity, they tend
usually to head right rather than left. I<BR>: speak of their Torah affiliation,
not their political views. <BR><BR>RMB: >>Lo sosuru mikol
asher yagidu lekha semol? I seem to remember another bit<BR>to that
pasuq.<<</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>TK: That pasuk means that you are not to deviate from the halacha as
taught and poskened by the rabbanim, poskim and Torah leaders of your day.
It has nothing to do with philosophic and hashkafic "left" and
"right." The Torah does not speak of a hashkafa which is "in the
middle" and certainly does not tell us that hashkafically a person has to be in
the middle between the Torah leaders on one side and secular leaders on the
other side. If your personal rebbe muvhak or rav is considered to be
RW in the Torah world, you should not deviate from his teachings -- that's what
your pasuk means. It does NOT mean that you should seek out some rebbe who is
considered Emtza and avoid all RW rabbanim!</DIV>
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<DIV><BR>RMB: >>Yekkes differ toward Litvishkeit because Litta
exported its talmud<BR>Torah. That's not a shift to the left or the right, but a
shift from<BR>basing avodah on menchlachkeit to basing it on talmud Torah.
Calling it<BR>left-vs-right belies the complexity of the differences in
thought.<<</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>TK: I am not at all sure what you're saying, but when Yekkes move
away from TIDE and towards a "Torah-only" model of avodas Hashem, they certainly
do not become less menshlich. However what I really had in mind when I
said that Yekkes who deviate show their yiras Shomayim by moving right
rather than left is that the other choice they had was to move left --
towards MO. And that is what they tend not to do. Of course I would
prefer that they not move at all, but remain true to their Hirschian
heritage.<BR><BR>...<BR>Old TK: : I am totally and absolutely convinced
that they are both wrong. <BR><BR>: What has happened in E'Y in the last
hundred years simply cannot be ignored, <BR>: cannot be gainsaid, and
cannot -- chas vesholom even to say such a thing -- <BR>: all be
attributed to the workings of the Sitra Achra...<BR><BR>RMB: >>And
what does that have to do with my insisting you can't project back<BR>onto what
RSRH would have said?<<</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>TK: Both you and SBA insisted that Hirsch would have been Neturei
Karta or Satmar in his attitude towards the modern Israeli state if he
were alive today. I am certain that is NOT true. He would have been
RWO, non-Zionist but would have viewed developments in E'Y as overwhelmingly
positive and a sign of Divine benevolence. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR> </DIV></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=0 face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"
PTSIZE="10"><BR><B>--Toby
Katz<BR>=============<BR></B><BR></FONT></DIV></DIV></FONT><BR><BR><BR><DIV><FONT style="color: black; font: normal 10pt ARIAL, SAN-SERIF;"><HR style="MARGIN-TOP: 10px">Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at <A title="http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851" href="http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851" target="_blank">AOL Autos</A>.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>