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<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2>From: "SBA" <A
href="mailto:sba@sba2.com">sba@sba2.com</A></FONT></DIV><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
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<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
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<DIV><BR>>>(Actually, I wonder if were he alive today, he might simply
be<BR>the very mainstream Agudat Yisrael/non-Zionist; [--RMM]<BR><BR>Maybe in
Chul. <BR>But mainstream Agudah in EY? I strongly doubt it.<BR><BR>>>given
that his son-in-law and the descendants thereof were extremely<BR>involved in
the Agudah, this seems like a safe assumption until someone<BR>takes the time to
do a detailed analysis.)<BR><BR>But how many of his descendents are/were
involved in Israeli Aguda?<BR><BR>>>In any case, his Zionism wasn't a
promiment part of his hashkafa<BR><BR>Only as much as and when necessary. He was
busy dealing with the main<BR>Shoresh Poreh Rosh veLaano of Germany at the time
- which was Reform.<BR><BR><BR>SBA</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>>>>></DIV>
<DIV>It is a bit anachronistic to speak of Zionism, whether Religious Zionism or
the secular variety, in Germany in the nineteenth century. There
was no such animal. Hirsch loved Eretz Yisrael. His writings
are full of the ancient yearning and love for the Holy Land which has
accompanied us Jews throughout the centuries of galus, whether bitter galus or
benign galus. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Had he been alive when Zionism really got under way, he would have followed
the majority of gedolim and majority da'as Torah, and would not have been a
Zionist. (I take it for granted that everyone knows the difference between
political Zionism and ahavas ha'aretz.) He would however have
cooperated with the institutions of government, once a medinah was a fait
accompli. He would NOT have agreed with the Satmar Rebbe or the
Lubavitcher Rebbe that it is preferable, when given a choice, for Jews to davka
remain in chutz la'aretz until Moshiach comes. OTOH where there is already
an established kehilla in chutz la'aratz, like the Yekke community in America,
he would not counsel them to dissolve their kehilla and reconstitute it in
E'Y. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In the absence of a navi, it is extremely difficult to know where any
individual Jew is supposed to be. Overall, it seems to me (I am not
channeling Hirsch now, but expressing my own opinion) that the Hashgacha has a
plan for the Jewish people that includes both a strong Torah-only community in
Eretz Yisrael AND a Torah-plus-work community in chutz la'aretz. Even DL --
to the extent that they adhere to halacha and are idealistic and make a kiddush
Hashem in their daily lives (but not when they ostentatiously distance
themselves from the charedi community) are doing G-dly work.
That is the Torah Im Derech Eretz of our day -- different purposes for the
communities of E'Y and of chu'l. Some who learn full time -- and may
Hashem bless them and increase their numbers -- and some who work and are kovea
itim and engage in rabbanus, chinuch and kiruv and just plain parnassah, and
philanthropy and tzedaka and chessed -- who support the full-time Torah
learners. And may Hashem bless them and increase their numbers too.
Zareinu vechaspeinu yarbeh kachol.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Hirsch's descendants and followers in Eretz Yisrael mostly identified with
the PAI party (Poalei Agudas Yisrael) in the early decades of the Medinah.
That party now seems to be defunct. Hirschians in
E'Y were /not/ Satmar and were /not/ Neturei Karta. They even
built a kibbutz, Kibbutz Chofetz Chaim.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>A sign of the essential yiras Shamayim of Yekkes in general and Hirschians
in particular is that when they do (unfortunately) deviate from TIDE
philosophical purity, they tend usually to head right rather than left. I
speak of their Torah affiliation, not their political views. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>RMB wrote a post to which I didn't respond for lack of time when he wrote
it, but he said that whatever I wrote about what Hirsch would have
thought about E'Y was just wishful thinking, that I was putting words in
his mouth and making him out to be some kind of Zionist because I myself have
some Zionist leanings, but that in reality RSRH was closer to Satmar in his
thinking. R' SBA agrees with RMB on that last point.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I am totally and absolutely convinced that they are both wrong.
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>What has happened in E'Y in the last hundred years simply cannot be
ignored, cannot be gainsaid, and cannot -- chas vesholom even to say such a
thing -- all be attributed to the workings of the Sitra Achra. We have
seen miracles upon miracles in Eretz Yisrael, and even if the Zionists hijacked
Hashem's gift and tried to uproot Torah in the Holy Land, it is still
Hashem's gift and not some kind of a Satanic trick. Like everything in
this post-Eden world of ours, everything in E'Y is ohr vechoshech mishtamshim
be'irbuvya. Even the most rabidly anti-Torah secular Zionists
have some zechus for the infrastructure they built, which makes possible the
beautiful Torah communities we have today in E'Y. We owe them hakaras
hatov as well as fierce and determined opposition to their secular ideals.
We have to be able to hold complexity in our minds.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR> </DIV></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=0 face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"
PTSIZE="10"><BR><B>--Toby
Katz<BR>=============<BR></B><BR></FONT></DIV></DIV></FONT><BR><BR><BR><DIV><FONT style="color: black; font: normal 10pt ARIAL, SAN-SERIF;"><HR style="MARGIN-TOP: 10px">Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at <A title="http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851" href="http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851" target="_blank">AOL Autos</A>.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>