<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 2:23 PM, Seth Mandel <<a href="mailto:sethm37@hotmail.com">sethm37@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div><br><p><span>The
Shulhan 'Arukh says in Orah Hayyim </span><span style="font-size: 11.5pt;">§479:1 that one is
required to try to have a zimmun for the seder. <span> </span>The R'MO adds that this is so that people can
read sections in Hallel responsively, and the Mishna B'rurah explains that
there is no requirement as far as bentching goes, the whole issue is so that Hallel
can be read responsively at the Seder. <span> </span>That
indeed in the source, from the Tur in this siman, quoting a Medrash. <span> </span>The R'MO considers this so important that he
allows bringing in someone from the outside who has not been at the rest of the
Seder.</span><span> <span> </span>Nor does the 'Arukh haShulhan mention that the
general custom is not to do it.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11.5pt;">I confess that, although I have been to lots of different
places and communities, my experience with S'dorim is limited. <span> </span>Outside of my parents (with my zeide Mandel
present at some) I have been to s'dorim only in 4 other places in my life, and
I have never seen this responsive reading done, outside of by RYBS. <span> </span>I have also asked someone who is very
knowledgeable about Hungarian customs, and he confirmed that, as far as he
knew, there was no custom to read any part of Hallel responsively in Hungary.<span> </span>Various pollaks and litvaks have told me the
same.<span> </span>(RYBS's practices is no proof,
since it is well known that Briskers had their own ideas about minhogim.)</span><span> </span></p>
<p><span>So:
does anyone know of any communities where they practiced responsive reading of
Hallel during the Seder? <span> </span>The only one I know
of is the Teimanim, both the Baladi and Shami, who do responsive reading for
the entire Hallel, as they do in shul. <span> </span>But
it would be exceedingly strange if the only community that followed the M'habber
and the R'MO were to be the Teimanim, who do not accept the p'sak of the M'habber
and the R'MO as binding…</span></p><p>Seth Mandel<br><span></span></p>
</div></blockquote><div><br>Remo states re: hallel on Rosh Hodesh that if you lack a minyan get at lesat 2 others to respond. This is becaue there is no hiyyuv to say Halle on Rosh Hodesh, only a minhag,<br><br>OTOH, on the 18/21 occasions mentioned in the braisso YACHID [emphasis mine] gomer es hahaellel]. it would be unlikely that the Hallel in the evening Seder is amongst these 18/21<br>
<br>Therefore it would make sense that jsut as Rosh Hodesh, one should havea miinimum of 2 answering.<br><br>Question: Why is Hallel Hagadol called Hallel Hagadol when it is SHORTER than Hallel mitzrayim?<br><br>Answer: the Hallel in the more limited sense is confined to those versus that elicit the response "ki l'olam Hasdo" which form a choral response. Apparently with Hallel in general it morphed into the Shatz saying the 4 lines in Psalm 118 followed by a response of Hodu Lashem as a complete verse reesponse. THAT is the ikkar "Hallel"<br>
<br>Simlar all of 118 has a kind of antiphonic structure bolstered by repeated verses when the verse themselves lack an apaprent aniphony. The entire chapter can be done responsively in this manner but it seems to have been limited to the above 4 ki l'olams PLUS the 2x4 ono's.<br>
<br>I would surmise the Rmeo is limitting his requirement for response to those versus embedded in 118. I cannot speak for the mechabber.<br><br>As such this dovetails with a long-awaited post showing that the Rmea is one of the very few who takes the temr YACHID gomer es Hahallel ina philogoically literal sense. That is to say the only heter for saying Hallel onRoshHodesh is without a yachid. This is PREFERABLY with a minyan of 10 but besha'as Had'chak any 2 will do.<br>
<br>Sphardim pretend that the term Yachid is not in the BRaisso and so cannot countenance the possibilty of Hallel on Rosh Hodesh iwth a Brahcah. But Remo's read is superiro {I don;t know if it his original read or a n Ashkenazic legacy]<br>
<br>This manifests in many ways:<br><br><ol><li>Saying Halle betzibbur is a must on Rosh Hodesh, optional on the 18/21 days</li><li>the manifestations of omitting Hallel at a beis avel vary between Hanukkah and Rosh Hodesh</li>
<li>The bracha on Hallel on Rosh Hodesh is said by Shatz ONLY as per minhag Habad AND the Aruch hashulchan.<br></li></ol> The remaining diffiuclties <br>1. I have are why say Hallel at all [even bedillug] on the last 6 days of Pesach. At least Rosh Hodesh has a Gmara to it.<br>
<br>2. Plus according to my read of Remo's read - dillug should not be required on Rosh Hodesh BETZIBBUR! After all if the restriction of 18/21 of Gomrin is for YACHID only what's the harm if the Tzibbur says whole Hallel on Rosh Hodesh? <br>
<br>The best answer I have is that the incident in the Gmara with Rav is in minor dispute with the Braisso and that the Halachah conflated the 2 cases as if they were not in conflict. This fits the Sephardic model, that Yachid is a no-op phrase anyway. Nevertheless it is Chrystal Clear that Rema respects the Yachid phrase wrt to Hallel on Rosh Hodesh.<br>
<br></div></div>Also see the Tosefta re: saying Hallel betzibbur on Passover eve in shul for those unable to says for themselves. <br clear="all"><br>==================================================================<br><br>
bottom line if Hallel Hagadol is BIGGER due to 26 ki l'olam's then the critera of responsding is primarily those versus constaining ki lo'loam and that is the reference point for Rema not necesarily the andicent Teimani version of mlutiple Hall'lukah's as the refrain <br>
<br><br>-- <br>Kol Tuv / Best Regards,<br>RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com<br>see: <a href="http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/">http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/</a>