<html xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:st1="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=us-ascii">
<meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)">
<o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
name="time"/>
<o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
name="date"/>
<!--[if !mso]>
<style>
st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
</style>
<![endif]-->
<style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Goudy Old Style";
panose-1:2 2 5 2 5 3 5 2 3 3;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin-top:0in;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:12.0pt;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Goudy Old Style";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p.MsoPlainText, li.MsoPlainText, div.MsoPlainText
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 77.95pt 1.0in 77.95pt;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>
</head>
<body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple>
<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Goudy Old Style"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Goudy Old Style"'>This was a matter of
communal minhogim. There is no remez in the g’moro or rishonim that
women are treated any different than men by the k’vurah. The Zohar was
the source, and the Zohar’s publication (and its being quoted for certain
things in the SA) did not change the customs of all communities immediately. By
Litvaks in Europe, women always went to the levayes and the shura was done for
them, as were all minhogim of avelus (including having a minyan in the house of
the deceased). That also was and is the custom of Teimanim.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Goudy Old Style"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Goudy Old Style"'>On the other hand, most
S’faradim, AFAIK, have conformed to the Zohar, as did Hungarians and most
Chasidim.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Goudy Old Style"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Goudy Old Style"'>Nowadays, as is well
known, in EY the chevra kadisha sets its own customs and most people are
obliged to follow them.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Goudy Old Style"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Goudy Old Style"'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Goudy Old Style"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Goudy Old Style"'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Goudy Old Style"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Goudy Old Style"'>Seth Mandel<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Goudy Old Style"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Goudy Old Style"'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Goudy Old Style"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Goudy Old Style"'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: SBA [mailto:sba@sba2.com] <br>
Sent: Friday, <st1:date Year="2008" Day="04" Month="4" ls="trans" w:st="on">April
04, 2008</st1:date> <st1:time Minute="27" Hour="2" w:st="on">2:27 AM</st1:time><br>
To: areivim<br>
Cc: avodah<br>
Subject: Levayeh Minhagim</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Last Sunday I attended a levayeh of a relative who wasn't too frum. She
only<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>has a daughter who seems to be even less religious.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>As they do not belong to any shul, someone arranged for a young Chabad<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>(House) rabbi to 'do' the service.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>He spoke well, said a few kapitlech Tehillim and a few psukim from
Eishes<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Chayil etc.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>However, there was no keriyeh done. (We only realised this much later.)
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>I am wondering, did the rabbi simply forget or is this common with
other<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>irreligious aveilim?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>After the burial, the rabbi announced a 'shurah' - asking men to stand
on<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>one side and women on the other.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>I have never before seen a shurah made for a woman or by women. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Is this because of my (and my community's) 'Amish' non-worldiness (as
per<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>recent newspaper reports) or rather>/<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Furthermore, the SA (beshem Zohar) - see SA YD 359:2 and KSA 198:10 -
talks<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>about the 'sakono' when men see women at funerals. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Our minhag has been that (mostly) women do go out to the cemetery - but<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>remain in the forecourt until after the kevureh and the men have left
that<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>area.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>My late father told me that 'in der heim' (Weitzen - and presumably
other OB<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>kehilos) women did not attend the burial. I hear that this was also the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>minhag in Germany. Presumably in keeping with the SA.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>How is this followed in other O and MO communities?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>SBA<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>