<html><head></head><body><p>Re: History<br><br>> RMB wrote:<br>> Chazal ... when they draw halachic conclusions, it<br>><br>> can't be from the history -- since that would<br>> imply an interest in historicity that numerous<br>> rishonim tell us didn't<br>> exist. <<br>><br>I asked,<br>> Which rishonim and where?<br>><br>R. David Riceman responded:<br>See PHM Avoth 1:16, ed. Sheilat, p. 19, s.v. "v'hahelek hashlishi". See<br>SA OH 307:16, though I had thought that attitudes changed somewhat after<br>Ibn Khaldun demonstrated that history could be a form of hochmah.<br><br>My reply:<br>The Shulchan Aruch simply says that one should not read books about wars on Shabbos. This is because despite the page-turning, can't-put-the-book-down pull that such works have, there is no G-d-directed value in them. In this sense, of course, our teachers held no interest in history-for-history's sake. As the Gemora says, "mai d'hava, hava."<br><br>But the context of the statement I was wondering about was the history-related statements made by Chazal which, by definition, interest Chazal and should interest us. But interest them and us in what way[s]? The thesis RMB said is held by numerous rishonim is that the interest Chazal had in them was solely in the lessons to be drawn, and that they were not interested in, and we should not be interested in, whether those statements are meant to depict actual historical occurances.<br><br>In other words, regarding Scriptural historical narratives (putting aside the controversial points), say the events of Yaakov Avinu's life, I hope we agree Chazal and rishonim maintained that they actually occurred, and for that reason those events carry whatever lessons for us they do. The issue is regarding the talmudic and Aggadic narratives: Did numerous rishonim maintain that for all Chazal cared, they did not actually occur? And if so, my question is: which rishonim and where?<br><br>I don't have Rav Sheilat's edition of the Payrush HaMishnayos. Could I trouble you to present what he says?<br><br>Zvi Lampel<br></p>
<br></body></html>