<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Jan 13, 2008 11:18 AM, <<a href="mailto:T613K@aol.com">T613K@aol.com</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
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<div>>>>>><br>Are you seriously trying to claim that davening at
Kever Rochel or singing Sholom Aleichem is the same as the egel or the A'Z
temple of Yeravam?! </div></blockquote><div><br>Sometimes a subtle indisious Avodah Zoro is more dangerous than the obvious bowing down to a wooden statute!<br><br>I find it ironic that some frum someJjews can be so machmir re:
e.g. kashrus and so easygoing about issues bordering AZ. <br><br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div>That is quite a stretch. If the debate here is
over normative Judaism, it is certainly RRW and not RZS who is taking the
radical position. </div></blockquote><div><br>How so? What is your evidence?<br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div>
(The question of davening to the Rebbe /instead of/
davening to Hashem is a far more serious problem, and on that point RRW may
well be correct.) But saying at a tzaddik's kever
"Please be a meilitz yosher for us" is /not/ A'Z. </div></blockquote><div><br>See kitzur Shulchan Aruch about asking Meisim to helop out. It is an issur d'orrasios doreach el hameisim. Kitzur is VERY careful about visitng kevarim before RH to make this disclaimer? Why? AFAIK less man depalig
<br><br><br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div> "Kol beramah
nishma, Rochel mevaka al baneha" establishes the principle that tzaddikim can
ask Hashem for rachamim for their children -- even after said tzaddikim have
left this world. Asking them, "Go to Father and plead for us" is not
A'Z. </div></blockquote><div><br>No it is doreish el hameisim, which is probably abizraihu d'AZ and a yeihareig v'al ya'avor<br><br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>Asking the malachim to give you a bracha is likewise not A'Z, any
more than asking any person for a bracha is A'Z. </div></blockquote><div><br>But would violate 13 Ikkarim of Rambam and according to R. Yehudah Parness puts you beyond the pale. IOW a prospective Ger would be rejectd for doing this.
<br><br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div>"Al tehi birchas hedyot
kal be'einecha" means ordinary people can bentsh other people, and
certainly malachim can. </div></blockquote><div><br>Adressing Malachim presupposes they have their own will. See Rambam. Imagine iof you address a Kings' arm or leg or some inferior body part. And BTW, Uriah hachitti was hayyav missa for saying "adoni Avishai" in front of David. Addrssing a Mlachi infron of Hashem is tantamount to ignoring HKBH and talkiing to an infeiror being instead.
<br><br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div>If a person can bentsh another person, what is to say
you can't actually ask for a bracha? It is still up to Hashem
to fulfill the bracha.</div></blockquote><div><br>If Presdient Bush was in fron of you and you aske Condy Rice to helpIsrael would that be OK because it is STILL Bush'sdecision? Or would you be violating protocal?<br>
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<div>PS Despite the thread subject, I do not believe in kinesiology, iridology,
homeopathy et al. They may not be A'Z but it is a separate mitzva, very
well known, for a Jew to have seichel.</div><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" lang="0" size="2"><b></b><br><b>--Toby
Katz<br>=============</b></font></div><br><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br>Bottom line, just because the other kids on the block do it does not make it OK. Minhaggim are OK and even holy when they enhance Torah. When they promote AZ I cannot imagine a bigger abuse of Minhag or Moreshes! Just because Mitechila ovdeai AZ hayu avoseinu does not mean we should emulate THAT morasha!
<br><br>Avraham Avinu violated Kibbud Av in order to rebel against AZ. THAT is our Morasha!<br><br clear="all">I'm not Melech Yisroel but if they made me king some of the first things I WOULD do would be:<br><ol><li>
Abolish all iconography</li><li>Abolish all images in shuls except for p'sukkim [iow Shiviss or Da lifnei is OK with me]I<br></li></ol><br>-- <br>Kol Tuv / Best Regards,<br><a href="mailto:RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com">RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
</a><br>see: <a href="http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/">http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/</a>