<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Dec 30, 2007 7:25 PM, Micha Berger <<a href="mailto:micha@aishdas.org">micha@aishdas.org</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div class="Ih2E3d">On Thu, Dec 27, 2007 at 10:35:00PM -0500, Richard Wolpoe wrote:<br>: Micha:<br>:> The notion that Sepharadim come almost entirely from Bavel whereas<br>:> Ashkenazim are primarily from EY, but a mix of both, is from Prof Agus.
<br>:> Search Avodah's archives for the name "Agus", this has been discussed<br>:> repeatedly in the past.<br><br>: This is hardly Agus's notion alone. Most of the major litrugicists subscribe<br>: to it
<br></div>...<br><br>I wrote the above under the impression that it was distinctly Prof<br>Agus's notion to take this notion and extend it beyond liturgy into a<br>discussion of the role of Bavli in Ashkenaz vs its role in Sepharad and
<br>the evolution of its acceptance in a special role in halachic development<br>even in Ashkenaz.<br><br>Tir'u baTov!<br>-Micha<br><font color="#888888"><br>--<br>Micha Berger <br></font></blockquote></div><br>Yes I am modeh Agus did extend it quite a bit. Just that the parameters already went beyond liturgy by the time of Rabbeinu Tam and Or Zarua.
<br><br>Think of this. Midrash Rabbah is primarily from EY. Anytime a Minhag is rooted in Midrash Rabba it COULD represent an example of the EY v.s Bavel dichotomy [iow it is not restricted to Yersuhalmi per se either].
<br><br>What I am saying is that there have been several generalizations on this thread that are mostly true but somewhat mis-leading.<br><br>Agus, Ta Sehma et. al. never make this a Yerushalmi Bavli dichotomy, rather they make it a EY vs. Bavel dichotomy and that encompasses many other texts.
<br><br>Similarly this is not limited to liturgy. Just that with the liturgy it is so blatant you don't need a PhD to figure out the pattern. <br><br>But it is also true that saying Minhag Ashkenaz = Minhag EY is not 100% true. This is a trend not an absolute. Yekum Purkan illustrates an exception.
<br><br>Also the Ashkenaz Amidah had 19 brachos whilst Kallir had 18 [viz. Binyan and tzemach were merged to preserve literally 18 even AFTER laminnim] <br><br>-- <br>Kol Tuv / Best Regards,<br><a href="mailto:RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com">
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com</a><br>see: <a href="http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/">http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/</a>